| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Sealed bids - how about some transparency? Thread poster: Hannele Marttila
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I'm sure we've all been there. We make our bid and wait for a response. Sometimes you know how many bids there were, sometimes in case of a direct contact you do not. Some clients thank you, some do not.
Now, I wonder. Would it make sense, that at least with bids through proz we got a summary about the bid process? Ie, how many bids, range of bids, and winning bid with some qualification as to why? Obviously, the bidding translators would not be identified. Eg, 10 bids, ranging from... See more I'm sure we've all been there. We make our bid and wait for a response. Sometimes you know how many bids there were, sometimes in case of a direct contact you do not. Some clients thank you, some do not.
Now, I wonder. Would it make sense, that at least with bids through proz we got a summary about the bid process? Ie, how many bids, range of bids, and winning bid with some qualification as to why? Obviously, the bidding translators would not be identified. Eg, 10 bids, ranging from x to x, winning bid of x etc? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I'd like that! | Sep 30, 2011 |
That's a good Idea, Hannele!
I think it would be nice to know if you didn't get the job because you weren't qualified or because your price was too high or maybe because someone offered a shorter turnaround.
Cristina
[Edited at 2011-09-30 18:08 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:09
Hebrew to English
| I third that notion | Sep 30, 2011 |
Sounds like a good idea, as long as identities aren't revealed I see no harm in this.
I think we all have these thoughts when we lose out on a bid (why?). And knowing why will allow us to have peace of mind, if nothing else.
...although it has practical applications too (will allow translators to be more competitive amongst other things).
| | | | | Yes, this would be really nice! | Sep 30, 2011 |
The rare times I have bidden I never got any answer except twice when I got the job (wow!), but this was many years ago...
Not knowing the reason why your offer has been rejected is quite frustrating, in my opinion. Most of the times, people don't even bother to look into my profile, so I think I have been, once more, too expensive. I'll not say that if this were the case, I would lower my prices next time, but as I said, it would be nice anyway, at least you'd get some feedback...... See more The rare times I have bidden I never got any answer except twice when I got the job (wow!), but this was many years ago...
Not knowing the reason why your offer has been rejected is quite frustrating, in my opinion. Most of the times, people don't even bother to look into my profile, so I think I have been, once more, too expensive. I'll not say that if this were the case, I would lower my prices next time, but as I said, it would be nice anyway, at least you'd get some feedback... And whatever the reason is - if I knew it - maybe I could refrain from bidding once and for all. ▲ Collapse
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Hannele Marttila
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:09
Finnish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Re competition - this should aid not hinder | Sep 30, 2011 |
It would make translators more competitive but not at all necessarily beating each other's prices - we all do set our prices and seeing, say, that somebody won a piece of work for a price I wouldn't entertain wouldn't make me bid that price in the future. It is all relative, but would help us positioning ourselves correctly to the market. Some guideline prices range form proz could also be considered, not obligatory, of course, such as given by some national translator associations.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:09
Hebrew to English
| A double-edged sword | Sep 30, 2011 |
I agree that the competition angle is a bit of a double-edged sword, it could encourage this "race to the bottom" which you hear so much about...
...but any translator with a shred of decency will have a limit and won't entertain this, I'd rather not bid at all than accept peanuts just to be in the game.
Edited for a typo
[Edited at 2011-09-30 19:39 GMT]
| | | | | My two cents | Sep 30, 2011 |
Hm... Although I understand what you mean, it would not be very healthy to analyse the rejection to such extent, i.e. was it the rate, was it my location, was it my specialties, was it my tools, was it my age, was it my moustache, was it my ears, was the earrings in my picture?
Whilst we can of course evolve to become more attractive in our market, we cannot --and should not-- change the essence of what we are. Each customer will expect or dislike different things, and trying to ada... See more Hm... Although I understand what you mean, it would not be very healthy to analyse the rejection to such extent, i.e. was it the rate, was it my location, was it my specialties, was it my tools, was it my age, was it my moustache, was it my ears, was the earrings in my picture?
Whilst we can of course evolve to become more attractive in our market, we cannot --and should not-- change the essence of what we are. Each customer will expect or dislike different things, and trying to adapt in each case means a risk of going bananas for no good purpose.
So be honest about your capabilities and your person, be reasonable in rates (i.e. do not compete only in rates), and let customers decide. If they pick another professional, it's best to accept it and go on with your life. There is always the right customer for each translator.
(Edited for a typo).
[Edited at 2011-09-30 20:12 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Hannele Marttila
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:09
Finnish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Not about moustaches | Sep 30, 2011 |
Understand where you're coming from, but didn't mean info to the extent you quote. Reasonable rates are indeed important, but these fluctuate with economics and the more information we have the better we will be able to price according to our skills, as we best see fit.
No need to hark back to lost bids but, it would not be a bad idea to learn from them.
BTW, some government organisations in Finland for example will release this type of information the bidders as a leg... See more Understand where you're coming from, but didn't mean info to the extent you quote. Reasonable rates are indeed important, but these fluctuate with economics and the more information we have the better we will be able to price according to our skills, as we best see fit.
No need to hark back to lost bids but, it would not be a bad idea to learn from them.
BTW, some government organisations in Finland for example will release this type of information the bidders as a legal requirement. I see no harm in it. ▲ Collapse
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Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 08:09
Spanish to English
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Bids used to be completely open from 2000 to ? (you could see all the bids, including names and rates), but users complained and bids were sealed. What happened was that the system turned into a reverse auction. Translator A would bid .12, translator B would bid .11, then .10, then .095, then .05, then .03, etc.
Hannele Marttila wrote:
I'm sure we've all been there. We make our bid and wait for a response. Sometimes you know how many bids there were, sometimes in case of a direct contact you do not. Some clients thank you, some do not.
Now, I wonder. Would it make sense, that at least with bids through proz we got a summary about the bid process? Ie, how many bids, range of bids, and winning bid with some qualification as to why? Obviously, the bidding translators would not be identified. Eg, 10 bids, ranging from x to x, winning bid of x etc?
| | | | | Location and rate would be very interesting | Sep 30, 2011 |
As already mentioned, identities should not be revealed, but it would be very interesting to see the rate the client accepted, and where the translator lives.
I work in practice with a wide range of rates. The cost of living and taxes are high in Scandinavia, where I live, and this is reflected in the rates I charge - when I can.
However, agencies outside Scandinavia are geared to a lower cost of living, and residents in some countries can and do make a respectable livi... See more As already mentioned, identities should not be revealed, but it would be very interesting to see the rate the client accepted, and where the translator lives.
I work in practice with a wide range of rates. The cost of living and taxes are high in Scandinavia, where I live, and this is reflected in the rates I charge - when I can.
However, agencies outside Scandinavia are geared to a lower cost of living, and residents in some countries can and do make a respectable living on far lower rates. I am sometimes told by Scandinavian colleagues that my rates are too low, only to have a client tell me they cannot afford more than half that amount.
Obviously, I have to play the market, and decide whether I can afford to work for the lower-paying agencies. Increasingly, end clients are going to agencies outside Scandinavia to look for 'real English' - and the lower rates only encourage them!
They can often find good English translators who can live on a far lower rate than I can. Making the higher rates visible too might encourage people to set rates up.
Some clients have discovered that it can be expensive in the long run to go for the bottom feeders, and they are willing to pay for quality. Over time, showing the rates accepted might also show up these good clients. It could reveal the ones who only go for the cheapest offer too.
The only question is: Do we have time for this?
The number of extra mails it would generate might feel more like spam after a while!
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| | | | | Excessive information that will do no good | Oct 1, 2011 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
Some clients have discovered that it can be expensive in the long run to go for the bottom feeders, and they are willing to pay for quality. Over time, showing the rates accepted might also show up these good clients. It could reveal the ones who only go for the cheapest offer too.
The only question is: Do we have time for this?
To me, knowing the rate accepted by the customer would only lower the rates more and more.
Besides, how do you know that the customer did not reject you because you were too cheap? When I try to help a customer look for a translator in a language pair other than my own, I never consider translators with rates lower than mine, no matter how qualified they appear to be.
Translators and customers in each of the possible rate/quality ratios always manage to find each other.
| | | | János Untener
Hungary
Local time: 14:09
Member (2010)
English to Hungarian
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If it ain't broke don't fix it
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 14:09
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| Feedback would be nice, but... | Oct 1, 2011 |
Hannele Marttila wrote:
Would it make sense, that at least with bids through proz we got a summary about the bid process? Ie, how many bids, range of bids, and winning bid with some qualification as to why? Obviously, the bidding translators would not be identified. Eg, 10 bids, ranging from x to x, winning bid of x etc?
Feedback would be very nice, yes, but the rate that a client had accepted is private information. If the winning bid is no longer a private affair, clients will simply adjust the way they use the jobs system, which may result in a less useful jobs system.
What I would like to see at the end of a bidding process, is (a) confirmation the fact that the process has been completed, (b) the number of bids, and (c) the range of bids (e.g. mean or median).
| | | | | It is not likely to get useful info | Oct 2, 2011 |
A few facts:
1. Jobs advertised here may be advertised at a number of other portals.
2. Often times the job poster asks for direct email contact, without using the ProZ quoting system.
3. Outsourcers often consider any info on rates, working relationships etc. confidential.
#1 means there is no guarantee that the job would be awarded to a ProZ member/user.
#2 means ProZ can't even track the quotes.
#3 means even if #1 and #2 don't apply, outsourcers wou... See more A few facts:
1. Jobs advertised here may be advertised at a number of other portals.
2. Often times the job poster asks for direct email contact, without using the ProZ quoting system.
3. Outsourcers often consider any info on rates, working relationships etc. confidential.
#1 means there is no guarantee that the job would be awarded to a ProZ member/user.
#2 means ProZ can't even track the quotes.
#3 means even if #1 and #2 don't apply, outsourcers would not disclose whom they chose and why, and especially what rate they agreed on.
Besides, what would prevent an outsourcer to say "I awarded this job to a translator who is a highly regarded expert in this specialty, has two masters, 25 years of experience, lives in California, and charges 2 cents per word".
(Which of course, would be the truth, and nothing, but the truth...)
Katalin
[Edited at 2011-10-02 03:13 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Hannele Marttila
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:09
Finnish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thank you all | Oct 2, 2011 |
Thank you to all participants. All the comments are pertinent and highlight the problematic nature of this topic.
There is no ideal solution, although we all agree on anonymity and probably on preventing any reverse auctions, ie gazumping.
The issue is further complicated by the fact that some bids are made through proz and some not and of course, any system can be abused just as any lock can eventually be broken.
I wasn’t saying that we’d ever be ab... See more Thank you to all participants. All the comments are pertinent and highlight the problematic nature of this topic.
There is no ideal solution, although we all agree on anonymity and probably on preventing any reverse auctions, ie gazumping.
The issue is further complicated by the fact that some bids are made through proz and some not and of course, any system can be abused just as any lock can eventually be broken.
I wasn’t saying that we’d ever be able to find out why somebody got the job we bid for - that is unrealistic – but at least for the bids going through proz, knowing the no of bids, the range of bids and value of accepted bid would, I think, give the bidders learning points that they can evaluate within their own sphere.
Rates are not everything, we all know that, and neither should they be. Quality, experience, delivery times etc play a big part, as does the client’s and the translator’s locality. I, as a UK based Fin/Eng translator find that some rates from say Asia are well below of what I can accept and often don’t even bid, but when I bid for my specialism with obvious credentials I think I would like to know the final bid price. ▲ Collapse
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