French term
contradictoire à son égard
il n'a pas sollicité d'extraction pour comparaître à l'audience.... de sorte que la décision rendue sera réputée contradictoire à son égard'.
I know it is to do with 'adversarial' procedure/law but not sure how to relay it in English. Thanks for your help.
Jan 17, 2021 01:23: Yolanda Broad changed "Term asked" from "*contradictoire* à son égard" to "contradictoire à son égard"
Proposed translations
(deemed) to have been given after they have been heard
1) the "deemed" part comes from réputé, so is not really part of the expression of the original question
2) the expression of the original question talks quite particularly and specifically of son égard ... so it is quite emphatically not about "both" parties, although contradictoire in this context does in 99% of cases enshrine this idea. Here, however, as I read it, the author has "extracted" the idea of "being heard" from the word contradictoire, and by the same token dispensed with the "both parties" idea.
agree |
AllegroTrans
: Certainly the right idea but more about the right to be heard (i.e. the principle is still complied with if the defendant chooses of his own free willl not to attend the hearing)
6 hrs
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Thanks
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agree |
Daryo
: the right idea
1 day 11 hrs
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Thanks
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agree |
Eliza Hall
: "...shall be deemed to have been rendered after he was duly heard."
2 days 24 mins
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Thanks
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post-adversarial /US: as a matter of due process / as far as he or she is concerned
Otherwise, inter partes in E+W: FHS Bridge - now known as 'on notice' as opposed to ex parte, now called 'without notice' - that seems to be open to misninterpretation by ProZ trans6altors - is routinely used in civil rather than criminal justice.
Due process in the USA means a fair trial and may not be immediately apparent to a UK readership.
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Note added at 59 minutes (2021-01-16 13:57:43 GMT)
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ProZ translators..
It argues that adversarial and inquisitorial justice systems should be transformed rather than hybridized, hence the terms 'postadversarial' and 'post-inquisitorial'
Agree with Eliza's comment, not sure if he had the 'chance' as such, but did not use that possibility anyhow ! |
disagree |
Eliza Hall
: It's not about due process. It's about deeming him to have been heard, since he had the chance to come to court and be heard but chose not to take it.
2 days 3 hrs
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given in his presence
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Note added at 2 hrs (2021-01-16 15:12:56 GMT)
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Nicole: your comment below suggests you may have misunderstood. He wasn't there, but the decision is deemed to have been (sera réputée) given in his presence.
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Note added at 5 hrs (2021-01-16 18:00:49 GMT)
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I've given what I believe to be a correct answer and a clear explanation, and so has Conor. I don't know what else to say!
but no, the detainee' was not present ! |
this detainee made no 'attempt' to be produced in court, nor ak for any adjournment so that the 'de sorte que la decision rendue sera contradictoire a son egard'.If he did not attend court, how could he be heard ? |
neutral |
Mpoma
: For me, "contradictoire" embodies the idea of "being heard", not just "being present". Edit: "heard" - meaning his case is heard (but presented by the lawyer)
2 hrs
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Unless he's representing himself, he doesn't get heard in court. He attends, and his lawyer does the talking.
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neutral |
AllegroTrans
: It's about the right to be heard (i.e. the principle is still complied with if the defendant chooses of his own free willl not to attend the hearing)
9 hrs
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disagree |
Daryo
: his physical presence has preciously little to do with the concept of "adversarial proceedings"
1 day 11 hrs
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"Preciously little"? And this from someone who tells Allegro his is "not the best phrasing"?
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disagree |
Eliza Hall
: The key issue is that he (his side of the argument) is deemed to have been heard before the court rendered its decision. Rendering it in his physical presence isn't the issue. Courts often don't issue decisions until the hearing's over/everyone's gone.
2 days 3 hrs
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deemed to have guaranted him/her the right to be be heard
Le principe du contradictoire (ou principe de la contradiction) est un principe de droit existant dans toute procédure, qu'elle soit civile, administrativement, pénale ou disciplinaire, et qui signifie que chacune des parties a été mise en mesure de discuter l'énoncé des faits et les moyens juridictionnels que ses adversaires lui ont opposés. Ce principe est également invoqué par la locution latine Audiatur et altera pars (ou tourné à l'actif Audi alteram partem), qui signifie « que soit entendue aussi l'autre partie »1.
Le principe du contradictoire est à rapprocher des notions de droits de la défense, bonne foi, loyauté, équité et égalité des armes (art. 6 §1er CEDH). Le principe du respect du contradictoire s'applique à tout moment de la procédure. Il implique :
que le demandeur informe en temps utile le défendeur de ses prétentions ainsi que des moyens de fait, des moyens de droit et des éléments de preuve qui sont invoqués à l'appui des prétentions ;
que les parties échangent leurs conclusions et leurs pièces en temps utile, et sous bordereau récapitulatif2 ;
que les mesures de recherche de preuve soient menées en présence des parties et de leurs conseils (les expertises sont ainsi contradictoires par principe) ;
que le juge, lorsqu'il soulève d'office un moyen de droit ou lorsqu'il requalifie juridiquement les faits, informe préalablement les parties afin que celles-ci puissent en discuter ;
que les débats soient eux-mêmes contradictoirement menés dans le cadre d'une audience publique, ou bien dans le cadre d'une audience de cabinet (ex. le débat devant le juge des libertés et de la détention précédant l'éventuelle mise en détention provisoire).
Dans le système juridique français, le principe de la contradiction est consacré par les articles 14 [archive], 15 [archive], 16 [archive] et 17 [archive] du Code de procédure civile.
Le principe du contradictoire est également protégé par le Code de procédure pénale, qui dispose en son article préliminaire que « la procédure pénale doit être équitable et contradictoire et préserver l'équilibre des droits des parties ».
Le respect du principe du contradictoire figure également dans le Code de déontologie des avocats (article 5) :
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Mpoma
: I'm slightly dubious about this, because "deemed to have guaranteed the right" implies that rights have been flung out of the window. I don't see any court saying this about itself (and its process)...
10 hrs
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No but the rights would not apply to an ex parte hearing e.g. seeking an injunction
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agree |
Daryo
: technically perfectly correct, but maybe not the best phrasing.
1 day 2 hrs
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I see no prob with the phrasing - it's unambiguous
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neutral |
Eliza Hall
: "Guarantee" isn't the issue. He had the chance to be there & heard, he chose not to come, so the court proceeded without him and its decision is deemed to have been made *after he was duly heard.* Not that he had or was guaranteed a right.
1 day 17 hrs
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"Guarantee" IS the issue, enshrined in the principe de contradictoire and the French Constitution
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deemed to have been made in proceedings in which both parties were represented
FHS Bridge provide a word-for-word answer: see jugement réputé contradictoire on
https://books.google.fr/books?id=rQAKtn-XjzIC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA...
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Note added at 1 hr (2021-01-16 14:11:29 GMT)
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Corrections:
including...too many to select any one in particular really.
FHS Bridge provideS...
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Note added at 1 day 23 hrs (2021-01-18 12:09:56 GMT)
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To Nicole: I would follow the Bridge translation cited above word-for-word, he knows what he's doing. I didn't copy over the entry properly from the dictionary.
Thanks Conor, yr ref to previous answerers is not opening. I have found 'judgment by default/absentia.. from what i understand the detainee did not attend hearings, therefore a decision/judgment was made without him being present though he had the possibility of attending court. Is that the right meaning ? from info on the doct the detainee was unrepresented in court. |
agree |
liz askew
: https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/117...
1 hr
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Thanks Liz!
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Mpoma
: There is a tension between "contradictoire" and "à son égard", which I read as meaning that the emphasis here is on the hearing of the detainee.
2 hrs
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See below
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AllegroTrans
: Not necessarily represented but given full opportunity to so be; "a son égard" suggests this is only about the accused
1 day 10 hrs
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Given the opportunity, hence deemed
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disagree |
Daryo
: CL5 is overoptimistic for a wording that is too ambiguous - a party "represented by a lawyer"? Nothing to do with "contradictoire" OTOH is you stretch the meaning of "represented" = a party that had an opportunity to present their arguments, could be
1 day 13 hrs
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CL5 because of very my reliable source (Bridge); my interpretation of the source may have been faulty
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agree |
philgoddard
: I believe your answer is correct, though mine is more concise. I'm agreeing with you because Daryo disagreed and his comments are wrong.
2 days 5 mins
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Thanks Phil!
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neutral |
Eliza Hall
: Baaaaasically, but it's not about being represented. It's about being heard.
2 days 3 hrs
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My approach really was to post the Bridge entry and to leave the Asker to it.
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due process in his absentia
But asker may have to fiddle with the grammar to make it fit with surrounding text.
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Note added at 2 days 4 hrs (2021-01-18 17:42:46 GMT)
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Wiki quote to answer Eliza Hall's objection:
Trial in absentia is a criminal proceeding in a court of law in which the person who is subject to it is not physically present at those proceedings. In absentia is Latin for "in (the) absence". Its meaning varies by jurisdiction and legal system.
In common law legal systems, the phrase is more than a spatial description. In these systems it suggests a recognition of a violation to a defendant's right to be present in court proceedings in a criminal trial.[citation needed] Conviction in a trial in which a defendant is not present to answer the charges is held to be a violation of natural justice.[1] Specifically, it violates the second principle of natural justice, audi alteram partem (hear the other party).
In some civil law legal systems, such as that of Italy, absentia is a recognized and accepted defensive strategy.[citation needed] Such trials may require the presence of the defendant's lawyer, depending on the country.
https://www.thenews.com.pk/tns/detail/586107-in-absentia-anddue-process
https://www.mcser.org/journal/index.php/ajis/article/view/5963
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AllegroTrans
: Due process it is, but doesn't quite convey the "contradictioire" principle, which is the guarantee of right to attend the hearing and to be heard
7 hrs
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disagree |
Eliza Hall
: Not the point or how it would be said. "In absentia" is for criminal trials where the defendant has fled/can't be found. https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=913
1 day 35 mins
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See added note
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contradictory with respect (or regard) to it
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Note added at 18 hrs (2021-01-17 07:50:39 GMT)
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Il y a des exemples semblables:
https://www.linguee.com/english-french/search?source=auto&qu...
"... mais qu'il n'a pas l'autorité pour obliger le non-résident à comparaître."
"... but it lacks the authority to compel a non-resident to appear."
https://www.deepl.com/translator?utm_source=lingueebanner1&i...
https://www.deepl.com/translator?utm_source=lingueebanner1&i...
An extraction is the act of extracting or the condition of being extracted, something obtained by extraction; an extract.
Normally, in court trials or cases, the extraction would be an extract from a source of written information.
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/contradictory
Something which is contradictory is inconsistent and incompatible. It's given to argument and contention.
A contradiction is an inconsistency or a discrepancy.
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/hearing
In law, a hearing is a legal proceeding in which evidence is taken and arguments are given as the basis for a decision to be issued, either on some preliminary matter or on the merits of a case.
In law, a hearing is a session, as of an investigatory committee or a grand jury, at which testimony is taken from witnesses.
(Une extraction est l'acte d'extraire, la condition d'être extrait, quelque chose obtenu par l'extraction; c'est un extrait.
Normalement, dans les procès ou les affaires judiciaires, l'extraction serait un extrait d'une source d'information écrite.
Ce qui est contradictoire est incohérent et incompatible. (Du témoignage contradictoire renferme en soi-même, tout en faisant une contradiction.)
www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/français/contradictoire/18661
https://fiches-droit.com/principe-du-contradictoire
Dans le domaine du droit, des lois et des légalités, une audience est une procédure judiciaire, dans laquelle des preuves sont recueilles et des arguments sont présentés, comme base d'une décision à prendre, soit sur une question préliminaire ou sur le fond d'une affaire.
Dans le domaine du droit, des lois et des légalités, une audience est une séance à partir d'un comité d'enquête ou un grand jury (d'accusation) au cours de laquelle les témoignages sont recueillis.)
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Note added at 20 hrs (2021-01-17 09:10:32 GMT)
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100% is complete and total.
Nonsense is made of words or signs with no intelligent meaning.
Nonsense is a matter of little or no importance or frivolity.
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Note added at 3 days 10 hrs (2021-01-19 23:25:38 GMT)
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"Il n'a pas solicité d'extraction pour comparaître à l'audience ... de sorte que la décision rendue sera réputée contredictoire à son égard."
disagree |
AllegroTrans
: Absolutely not! A false friend if ever there was one; "an extraction to be lent to a hearing before an audience" is 100% utter nonsense
31 mins
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disagree |
ormiston
: This is not a translation
10 hrs
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disagree |
Mpoma
: oops
11 hrs
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disagree |
Yvonne Gallagher
: pure nonsense "No one has requested an extraction to be lent to a hearing before an audience... in such a way that the decision taken (or rendered) will be considered (or reputed) as contradictory in its own respect."
13 hrs
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disagree |
Angus Stewart
: as others have said this is 100% nonsense.
20 hrs
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disagree |
Daryo
: you managed 101% nonsense!
1 day 2 hrs
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disagree |
Eliza Hall
: No.
1 day 18 hrs
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Discussion
P.S. Would it be possible for you to post the sentence in question in a larger extract of the source text? I think that would make it easier to situation what is happening in the bigger picture here. ;-)
Recent changes on "extractions judiciaires" shifted from the Ministre de l'intérieur/Police nationale to the Ministère de la justice/Administration pénitentiaire (PREJ), have given rise to some cases being delayed as there are simply not always the personnel available to carry out the "extraction". Indeed, in some instances, procedural rules 'n' regs regarding time limits have even led to some individuals being released as they have not been able to appear in court, through no fault of their own. The other side may find some way of using this difficulty to their advantage in defending a client. S*** happens.
In other words, the principle guarantees that courts will not make decisions without giving both parties the opportunity to be heard ("sinon entendues, du moins appelées").
But this text isn't about the abstract principle or the guarantee. It's about what happens when both parties have been given that opportunity, but one of them chose not to take it. In such cases, "la décision rendue sera réputée contradictoire à son égard."
In other words: "the decision will be deemed to have been rendered after he was duly heard."
I threw in the "duly" to capture the legal meaning better, and because in EN we would say it that way; the meaning of "duly" here is that he was properly heard to the full extent of his rights.
PS I second what AllegroTrans said below about "default" not being the proper term in a criminal case.