Feb 14, 2021 16:19
3 yrs ago
34 viewers *
French term
verticale
French to English
Law/Patents
Construction / Civil Engineering
Document about planning law.
"Il y a lieu de constater que, selon la jurisprudence, il y a « construction nouvelle édifiée sans permis » lorsque les transformations opérées irrégulièrement « aboutissent à réaliser une construction n’ayant plus aucun lien avec la précédente » ou bien lorsqu’ils constituent « une construction nouvelle différant par sa conception, son importance et son aspect extérieur de l’ancien bâtiment, alors même que la hauteur de leur verticale et leur surface hors œuvre nette sont presque similaires »."
In my naivety I assume this means "their heights". But why not just say leurs hauteurs... ?
NB Termium suggests "plumb line" and GDT suggests "stanchion" or "lattice stanchion". These latter appear to refer specifically to windows.
"Il y a lieu de constater que, selon la jurisprudence, il y a « construction nouvelle édifiée sans permis » lorsque les transformations opérées irrégulièrement « aboutissent à réaliser une construction n’ayant plus aucun lien avec la précédente » ou bien lorsqu’ils constituent « une construction nouvelle différant par sa conception, son importance et son aspect extérieur de l’ancien bâtiment, alors même que la hauteur de leur verticale et leur surface hors œuvre nette sont presque similaires »."
In my naivety I assume this means "their heights". But why not just say leurs hauteurs... ?
NB Termium suggests "plumb line" and GDT suggests "stanchion" or "lattice stanchion". These latter appear to refer specifically to windows.
Proposed translations
(English)
| 3 +1 | height of the street-facing vertical wall (or vertical facade) |
Althea Draper
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| 3 | upright direction |
Lisa Rosengard
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| 2 | height in terms of elevation |
Conor McAuley
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References
| One ghit but does it help? |
SafeTex
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Proposed translations
+1
2 hrs
Althea Draper
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
United Kingdom
Freelance Medical Translator, MA (Hons)
Native in: English (Variants: British, Scottish) 
Works in: French to English, Spanish to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
51
French term (edited):
la hauteur de la verticale
Selected
height of the street-facing vertical wall (or vertical facade)
I believe it's the height of the vertical wall (or vertical facade) that faces onto the street. There are a myriad of regulations that determine how high this should be depending on the width of the street, overhangs, projecting structures etc.. Also how high it should be if there are two sides of the building that face different streets when the streets are at different levels. (The total height of the building is called the 'hauteur plafond'.) See https://dtlab.fr/2004/10/31/essai-sur-lilot-si-paris-metait-... and https://www.apur.org/sites/default/files/documents/incidence... for plenty of diagrams.
Reference:
http://www.apur.org/sites/default/files/documents/incidences_evolution_loi_ALUR_bati_parisien.pdf
Note from asker:
| Aha, astute, thanks. |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Daryo
: the height of the street-facing vertical wall (or vertical facade) of the new construction compared to the height of the street-facing vertical wall (or vertical facade) of the previous construction.
9 hrs
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Thanks Daryo
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks"
16 mins
Conor McAuley
France
France
Native in English
France
Excellence, Expertise & Experience
Native in: English (Variants: Irish, British, Wales / Welsh, UK, Scottish)
Works in: French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
50
height in terms of elevation
I would be fascinated to hear if there is a technical explanation, but I think this is just a stylistic effect -- the author could have just said "height", is my gut feeling.
"Elevation" conjures up building plans (architects talk about side elevations, front elevations, etc.) and also distance from the ground.
https://www.homify.in/ideabooks/6942724/exceptional-front-el...
Also, I think it should be singular: "une construction...". I don't know why "leur" is in there.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
SafeTex
: Yes, I had just come back to say this. if the building is on a slope, it doesn't slope also but has the same elevation (one side is lower than the other to achieve this)
4 mins
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Thanks SafeTex!
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| neutral |
philgoddard
: This doesn't convey any clear meaning to me. Also, if you're saying the French is a tautology, which I think it probably is, you shouldn't reproduce it in the English.
1 hr
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Yes, there is only one ghit for the French term (see SafeTex's reference) => it's not a technical term at all -- translate as "height" OR as "elevation". "Leur" refers to (the old) "construction" and to (the new) "bâtiment".
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| disagree |
Daryo
: "leur" is not there by some kind of mistake, or just for padding the text, same as "could have just said "height"" is wrong. // I don't understand the text but still will translate it is some new method?
11 hrs
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I did not say that "leur" = stylistic. It ("leur") refers to "construction" and "bâtiment". Finally, confidence level 2 is some new method of saying not confident and I later withdrew my answer (in reply to Phil), despite support (SafeTex and Dominique).
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23 hrs
Lisa Rosengard
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
United Kingdom
experienced and well qualified linguist
Native in: English (Variant: UK)
Works in: Spanish to English, English, Spanish, and 3 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
15
upright direction
'It's a reference to a newly built-up (edified) construction without a permit. Operated modifications and transformations took place irregularly, resulting in the completion of a construction with no previous occurrence or precedent. It constitutes a new construction unlike the initial concept of its design. The old building's importance and exterior appearance, even their vertical (upright directional) height and their surface outside of the clearly defined opening are fairly similar.'
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Note added at 23 hrs (2021-02-15 15:34:47 GMT)
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'il constitue une construction nouvelle à différence du concept initial de son dessein. L'importance du bâtiment vieil et l'aspect de son extérieur, même l'hauteur de leur verticale (l'orientation vers le haut) et la taille de leurs surfaces, hors de l'ouverture clairement définie sont assez pareils.'
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Note added at 23 hrs (2021-02-15 15:34:47 GMT)
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'il constitue une construction nouvelle à différence du concept initial de son dessein. L'importance du bâtiment vieil et l'aspect de son extérieur, même l'hauteur de leur verticale (l'orientation vers le haut) et la taille de leurs surfaces, hors de l'ouverture clairement définie sont assez pareils.'
Example sentence:
'Il s'agit d'une construction récemment édifiée sans permis. Des modifications et des transformations ont eu lieu irrégulièrement, avec la réalisation d'une construction comme résultat sans aucune précédence (ni une occurrence antérieure).
Il constitue une construction nouvelle à différence du concept initial de son dessein. L'importance du bâtiment vieil et l'aspect de son extérieure, même l'hauteur de leur verticale (l'orientation vers le haut) et la taille de leurs surfaces, hors d
Reference comments
8 mins
Reference:
One ghit but does it help?
Maybe this one hit can help someone to solve this question?
Note from asker:
| Very nice... so it appears to be about "zoning" and aesthetics. I.e. to stop Haussmann's baby degenrating into an anti-Cartesian mishmash like London. |
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
philgoddard
2 hrs
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Thanks Philgoddard
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| agree |
Conor McAuley
16 hrs
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Discussion
1st reference - If the house is built on a slope, according to the regulations, you take the height to be from the soil at the median point of the lower edge of the facade up to the level of the bottom of the roof.
2nd reference - The heights are measured from the level of the lowest point of the facade.
(Page 9) https://www.fontenay.fr/fileadmin/medias/Pdf/Urbanisme/PLU_2...
(Page 6) http://berrelesalpes.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/4_Berre-l...
There are many houses built on slopes and the walls at either end DON'T have the the same height. In such a case, what is the height of the front and back walls??? It varies of course. The whole point though is that the top of the front and back wall is at the same elevation (above see level)
See a clear example of what I mean at: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2019/04/15/TELE...
This is also the likely sense of my reference where the passage speaks of "alignment" and the suggested answer with "elevation"
la "verticale" = the vertical part of the building => street-facing vertical wall (or vertical facade)
la hauteur de leur verticale et leur surface hors œuvre nette sont presque similaires = the gabarit / occupied volume of the new and previous construction are very similar / almost the same
but it's still not considered as being "(almost) the same building" because the "new version":
"est une construction nouvelle différant par sa conception, son importance et son aspect extérieur de l’ancien bâtiment"
IOW even if you are going to "reuse" the same volume (not build anything bigger or higher), you still can't build just anything you want without planning permission.
You have more or less the same limitations in UK, and it's a general rule applicable to any building, not particularly linked to zoning.
height in terms of elevation me semble décrire ce dont il s'agit ici pour ne pas défigurer une suite de façades.