Jun 28, 2023 18:09
11 mos ago
45 viewers *
English term
Homo sapiens, who not only know but know we know
English
Social Sciences
Anthropology
homo sapiens
Dear colleagues, I was wondering about the meaning of the sentence “Homo sapiens, the ones who not only know but know we know”. Maybe I’m mistaken, but it seems to me that this definition refers to Homo sapiens sapiens, not to Homo sapiens? Or might it have another meaning in this context?
Thank you so much for your help!
*************
The genus of Homo, sometimes broadly called “humans,” seems to have evolved on Earth somewhere around 5 million years ago, and some studies place the appearance of our species – what we’ve come to name *** Homo sapiens, the ones who not only know but know we know ***, sometimes called the “wise ones” – in Africa sometime between 350,000 and 130,000 years ago. We and our Neanderthal cousins used tools and lived in groups.
Thank you so much for your help!
*************
The genus of Homo, sometimes broadly called “humans,” seems to have evolved on Earth somewhere around 5 million years ago, and some studies place the appearance of our species – what we’ve come to name *** Homo sapiens, the ones who not only know but know we know ***, sometimes called the “wise ones” – in Africa sometime between 350,000 and 130,000 years ago. We and our Neanderthal cousins used tools and lived in groups.
Responses
1 day 21 hrs
Yvonne Gallagher
Ireland
Ireland
Native in English
&
English
Ireland
right word, right place. everytime
Native in: English (Variants: US, Canadian, Irish, UK) 
Works in: French to English, Spanish to English, English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
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4
Selected
homo sapiens, the "wise ones"
See discussion. On taking another look I realise that this is even more of a mess than first thought
Note that your sentence has errors:
"Homo sapiens, the ones who not only know but know we know, sometimes called the “wise ones” – in Africa sometime between 350,000 and 130,000 years ago.
This is NOT talking about "homo sapiens sapiens" as such (which only started to originate about 160,000 years ago), but rather the earlier human types, including "our Neanderthal cousins (who used tools and lived in groups)"
So better to translate as ... "homo sapiens, sometimes called the “wise ones” – in Africa sometime between 350,000 and 130,000 years ago.
You could add to clarify
We, the early modern humans, "Homo sapiens sapiens" (wise ones aware they are wise) and our Neanderthal cousins used tools and lived in groups (at that time).
definition
"Homo sapiens sapiens": a subspecies of Homo sapiens where modern human beings belong and are the only extant species of the Homo genus, originated around 160,000 years ago so were living for some time with homo sapiens.
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Note added at 1 day 21 hrs (2023-06-30 15:44:21 GMT)
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in other words, the 2 types, homo sapiens and homo sapiens sapiens are intermingling after 160,000 years ago. So for the period in question, from 350, 00 to 160, 000 it is really just homo sapiens. Hence you can't use "who not only know but know THEY know"
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Note added at 1 day 21 hrs (2023-06-30 15:51:25 GMT)
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typo: 350, 00 to 160, 000
should be 350,000 to 160,000
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Note added at 1 day 21 hrs (2023-06-30 15:52:05 GMT)
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the distinction has to be made based on the time period
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Note added at 7 days (2023-07-06 00:54:51 GMT) Post-grading
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Hi Haribert, glad to have helped. It is quite convoluted.
I agree that the distinction is often not made these days but in this case, where the author is using the extra phrase, the extra "sapiens" is probably necessary too i.e. Homo sapiens sapiens: "the ones who not only know but know they know" (I still contend that "we" is wrong on a gramatical level) OR the rephrasing I suggested in the Dbox "the wise ones who are aware/know they are wise" since "wise ones" are already mentioned in the text.
Anyway, good luck!
Note that your sentence has errors:
"Homo sapiens, the ones who not only know but know we know, sometimes called the “wise ones” – in Africa sometime between 350,000 and 130,000 years ago.
This is NOT talking about "homo sapiens sapiens" as such (which only started to originate about 160,000 years ago), but rather the earlier human types, including "our Neanderthal cousins (who used tools and lived in groups)"
So better to translate as ... "homo sapiens, sometimes called the “wise ones” – in Africa sometime between 350,000 and 130,000 years ago.
You could add to clarify
We, the early modern humans, "Homo sapiens sapiens" (wise ones aware they are wise) and our Neanderthal cousins used tools and lived in groups (at that time).
definition
"Homo sapiens sapiens": a subspecies of Homo sapiens where modern human beings belong and are the only extant species of the Homo genus, originated around 160,000 years ago so were living for some time with homo sapiens.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 21 hrs (2023-06-30 15:44:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
in other words, the 2 types, homo sapiens and homo sapiens sapiens are intermingling after 160,000 years ago. So for the period in question, from 350, 00 to 160, 000 it is really just homo sapiens. Hence you can't use "who not only know but know THEY know"
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 21 hrs (2023-06-30 15:51:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
typo: 350, 00 to 160, 000
should be 350,000 to 160,000
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 21 hrs (2023-06-30 15:52:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
the distinction has to be made based on the time period
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 days (2023-07-06 00:54:51 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------
Hi Haribert, glad to have helped. It is quite convoluted.
I agree that the distinction is often not made these days but in this case, where the author is using the extra phrase, the extra "sapiens" is probably necessary too i.e. Homo sapiens sapiens: "the ones who not only know but know they know" (I still contend that "we" is wrong on a gramatical level) OR the rephrasing I suggested in the Dbox "the wise ones who are aware/know they are wise" since "wise ones" are already mentioned in the text.
Anyway, good luck!
Note from asker:
| Dear Yvonne, initially I made the same suggestion as you do to our editor. But, if you see the discussion, there seems to be a debate about the distinction between Homo sapiens and Homo sapiens sapiens... Anyway I think your remarks are right.. Thank you for suggesting an answer! |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Daryo
: all correct, but that's not the point made in the ST.
2 days 6 hrs
|
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you obviously haven't read my answer or taken note of the time period or understood the errors
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Dear Yvonne, thank you for your contribution! Actually, if you see the Discussion, there seems to be a debate about the difference between Homo sapiens and Homo sapiens sapiens (it seems that some authors don’t make this distinction any longer...). But I agree with you that some distinction, at least at a linguistic level, should be made, also because “Homo sapiens sapiens” is still a well-known “phrase”.
So I made the following suggestion to editor and publisher: including the definition “Homo sapiens sapiens” in parenthesis after the phrase "who not only know but know THEY know"..
"
4 days
we homo sapiens, who not only have knowledge, but are also aware of that fact
or
we (collectively as the species) homo sapiens, we not only have knowledge (/the capacity to learn), but we are also aware of that fact (we know that we are capable of knowing).
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Note added at 4 days (2023-07-02 22:26:18 GMT)
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Forget about it, and come back later - and suddenly it makes sense.
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Note added at 4 days (2023-07-02 22:31:12 GMT)
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... what we’ve come to name Homo sapiens, the ones who not only know but know we know,
=
... what we’ve come to name Homo sapiens, as we (collectively as the species) homo sapiens, we not only have knowledge (/the capacity to learn), but we are also aware of that fact (we know that we are capable of knowing).
we (collectively as the species) homo sapiens, we not only have knowledge (/the capacity to learn), but we are also aware of that fact (we know that we are capable of knowing).
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2023-07-02 22:26:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Forget about it, and come back later - and suddenly it makes sense.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 days (2023-07-02 22:31:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
... what we’ve come to name Homo sapiens, the ones who not only know but know we know,
=
... what we’ve come to name Homo sapiens, as we (collectively as the species) homo sapiens, we not only have knowledge (/the capacity to learn), but we are also aware of that fact (we know that we are capable of knowing).
Note from asker:
| Daryo, thank you for your contribution. The problem is that there seems to be a debate about the difference between Homo sapiens and Homo sapiens sapiens.... the phrase “homo sapiens, who not only know but know we know” and your accurate rephrasing “we homo sapiens, who not only have knowledge, but are also aware of that fact” is actually the translation of “homo sapiens sapiens”...so I feel I have to include this definition, too and I pointed it out to the editor. I So I have written it in parenthesis after the Italian translation of this sentence, and I’ll see whether my suggestion will be accepted.... |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Yvonne Gallagher
: From 350,000 to 160, 000 it is just "homo sapiens". Hence you can't use "who not only know but know THEY know" (or your clumsy version of that)
13 hrs
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all correct, but as far as I can see the point of this question is in "who not only know but know we know" - self awareness
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Reference comments
6 mins
Zoi Patrinou
Greece
Greece
Greece
Übersetzungen 6 Sprachkombinationen
Native in: Greek
Works in: German to Greek, English to Greek, Greek to German, and 6 more.
Reference:
Homo sapiens sapiens is the sub-species that stems from Homo sapiens. Have a look here. I think you have understood it correctly.
https://www.biologyonline.com/dictionary/homo-sapiens-sapien...
https://www.biologyonline.com/dictionary/homo-sapiens-sapien...
Note from asker:
| Thank you so much, Zoi, for your contribution! |
Discussion
Thank you again for your valuable help!
"the ones who not only know but know we know " is actually wrong as "the ones" does not equate to "we"! It would have to be: "Homo sapiens sapiens are modern humans, the wise ones who are aware/know they are wise" (or something similar)
I think in this case I'll make this suggestion to the publisher...
Be careful introducing material from a previous book or books. HOWEVER, in this case:
"Homo sapiens" has several subspecies including us, the modern and only extant version of human, AKA "homo sapiens sapiens". Can you not keep the Latin rather than translate?
See here: https://www.biologyonline.com/dictionary/homo-sapiens-sapien...
Bjōrn, my posts are vetted due to me being such a naughty boy.
Since I can't be sure what exactly went wrong here, I'm not going to post an answer. If some of what's been posted in this thread is useful to you, that's good enough for me.
@Ice Scream
Don’t want to hijack this thread for something unrelated, but I just saw today that you had replied to my forum post. I don’t think I was even notified about this! I think it’s because the whole thread was hidden (oddly, except for your post, that is).
Short answer: When I click on More > Leaders, I can see *three* leaderboards, not just one. The first two are for a period of 3 and 12 months.
Those are the two people should be focused on because getting a spot on the all-time leaderboard is pretty much impossible now.
To both of you, enjoy your evening!
"They are the same thing. In the 1930s, neanderthals were named 'Homo sapiens neanderthalensis' and were thought to be a subspecies of Homo sapiens. Thus, we were named 'Homo sapiens sapiens' as a different subspecies."
However, there's still some debate about this; as even Wiki notes:
"It has since become more common to designate Neanderthals as a separate species, H. neanderthalensis, so that AMH in the European context refers to H. sapiens, but the question is by no means resolved."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_modern_human
Considering you said that the author used to call and still is calling them "sapiens sapiens," the only other (viable) explanation I can think of is that it was a simple oversight or that an editor removed something (Word, btw, also wouldn't like all those duplicates). I mean there must have been an editor involved somewhere.
Best of luck!
For instance, in The Developing Mind, by Guilford, the third edition of 2020: "We humans are a storytelling species—one that “knows we know” (Homo sapiens sapiens)."
It's also true, however, that Siegel is not an anthropologist...
Maybe I might add something like: "Homo sapiens, OR HOMO SAPIENS SAPIENS, the ones who not only know but know we know" ?
Thank you for your patience!
or maybe better: "Homo sapiens, the ones who not only know but know we know (HOMO SAPIENS SAPIENS)"
The reference posted doesn't really explain what's going on here; this one might:
"Homo sapiens is the modern name of the human species in biological systematics. Homo sapiens sapiens was the name in biological systematics until the 90s when we thought Neanderthals would have been some form of sub species of the human species and called them Homo sapiens neanderthalensis and ourselves Homo sapiens sapiens. We learned that we were mistaken..."
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-Human-b...
Corroborated by other people answering the same question (and elsewhere on the web).
So the word play (if you want to call it that) is now "shot," because the scientific terms have changed. No more "double knowing."
It would have been better if the author had removed this part of the sentence already.
Best wishes
https://books.google.it/books?id=boBxEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT61&dq=Thi...
HTH
The author? The author speaking on behalf of his / her profession? The author speaking on behalf of all Homo sapiens???
There must be some clues in the preceding text.
"Our species name is Homo sapiens sapiens. Sapiens means “knowing.” So with the double knowing we are the ones who not only know, but know we know." ...
that's why I was wondering whether there may be something missing in this new text...