Nov 26, 2020 08:25
3 yrs ago
78 viewers *
French term
effets patrimoniaux
French to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
Divorce proceedings
"- dire et juger que la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux sera fixée au 3 XXX 2099, date de l'ordonnance de non conciliation, en application de l'article 262 1 du Code civil,"
This word patrimonial crops up in other sentences and expressions:
"- donner acte à Madame XXX de la proposition qu'elle a formulée en application de l'article 2"57-2 du Code civil, dans le dispositif de la présente assignation, quant au règlement des intérêts pécuniaires et patrimoniaux des époux,"
"- ordonner la liquidation et le partage des intérêts patrimoniaux des époux,"
"- L'article 267 du code civil, dans sa rédaction applicable aux assignations délivrées postérieurement au 1er janvier 2016, ne donne plus pouvoir au juge aux affaires familiales qui prononce le divorce d'ordonner la liquidation et le partage des intérêts patrimoniaux, sauf dans les conditions fixées aux articles 1361 à 1378 du code de procédure civile, si les parties justifient par tout moyen des désaccords subsistant entre elles, notamment en produisant une déclaration commune d'acceptation d'un partage judiciaire, indiquant les points de désaccord entre époux ou un projet établi par le notaire désigné sur le fondement de l'article 255 10° du code civil."
I believe that patrimonial here refers to "property" interests as opposed to "financial" (pécuniaire) interests. Several Linguee entries suggest "property consequences" or "property implications" for effets patrimoniaux. This sounds like the right sort of area of meaning, but I've never come across this idea of legalese effets = "consequences". On the other hand "property effects" sounds like the actual real estate properties themselves (cf. "personal effects"), which is clearly not the meaning: this is holding that a particular legal action will come into effect on a certain date.
"- dire et juger que la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux sera fixée au 3 XXX 2099, date de l'ordonnance de non conciliation, en application de l'article 262 1 du Code civil,"
This word patrimonial crops up in other sentences and expressions:
"- donner acte à Madame XXX de la proposition qu'elle a formulée en application de l'article 2"57-2 du Code civil, dans le dispositif de la présente assignation, quant au règlement des intérêts pécuniaires et patrimoniaux des époux,"
"- ordonner la liquidation et le partage des intérêts patrimoniaux des époux,"
"- L'article 267 du code civil, dans sa rédaction applicable aux assignations délivrées postérieurement au 1er janvier 2016, ne donne plus pouvoir au juge aux affaires familiales qui prononce le divorce d'ordonner la liquidation et le partage des intérêts patrimoniaux, sauf dans les conditions fixées aux articles 1361 à 1378 du code de procédure civile, si les parties justifient par tout moyen des désaccords subsistant entre elles, notamment en produisant une déclaration commune d'acceptation d'un partage judiciaire, indiquant les points de désaccord entre époux ou un projet établi par le notaire désigné sur le fondement de l'article 255 10° du code civil."
I believe that patrimonial here refers to "property" interests as opposed to "financial" (pécuniaire) interests. Several Linguee entries suggest "property consequences" or "property implications" for effets patrimoniaux. This sounds like the right sort of area of meaning, but I've never come across this idea of legalese effets = "consequences". On the other hand "property effects" sounds like the actual real estate properties themselves (cf. "personal effects"), which is clearly not the meaning: this is holding that a particular legal action will come into effect on a certain date.
Proposed translations
(English)
Proposed translations
1 day 23 hrs
French term (edited):
fixer la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux
Selected
set the date when the divorce will produce effects between the spouses regarding their assets
set the date when the divorce will produce effects between the spouses on (/regarding / vis-à-vis) their assets
see the first answer, and the reasons for correcting it.
Could surely be said in many ways, but some elements must not be omitted
les effets = consequences
entre les époux = that date is relevant ONLY in the relations between the spouses NOT with third parties this request is NOT about changing the "date of the divorce" as far as third parties are concerned
patrimoniaux = that concerns "le patrimoine" of the spouses - all assets, not limited to real property (real estate, realty, land).
Note from asker:
| I've just realised we're both wrong! "date de l'ordonnance de non conciliation" is in the past, not the future. I have more reason to have realised this than you. So I should have put "shall be deemed to have come into effect...". |
| Ah... and the fact that I disguised the date as "2099" can't have helped you! |
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "This is the closest to what I put: "the measures relating to real property of the spouses' divorce shall come into effect on X". I parse as "divorce entre époux", so I don't think there's anything special there. "Patrimonial" in *this* document, at least, seems to be contrasted with "pécuniaire". I concluded that this was above all about living arrangements (and related property rights)."
-3
1 hr
heritage effects
Gli effetti di una situazione, per es. divorzio o fallimento, sul patrimonio del soggetto interessato.
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Tony M
: But in the legal context of personal assets, 'heritage' is not the correct term in EN.
32 mins
|
| disagree |
Daryo
: "heritage"? who is dead? All ST says is about divorce ... OTOH you are right about "Gli effetti di una situazione"
1 hr
|
| disagree |
AllegroTrans
: This is not about heritage
2 hrs
|
2 hrs
Adrian MM.
Austria
Austria
Native in English
Specializes in field
Austria
Retd.T&I, Barrister & Austro-Advokat
Native in: English (Variants: British, Scottish) 
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
359
French term (edited):
effets patrimoniaux; intérêts patrimoniaux
economic / asset-related/ consequences; economic / proprietary / interests
It's that patrimonial weasel-word again.
capital-related would be covered by pécuniaire.
In the UK, this might be an 'ancillary relief' matter - namely one relating to custody of children & property division.
The problem with economic is that, in Anglo-Am. law, PEL: pure economic loss refers to pecuniary losses and property-related also includes money.
Again, according to the client's glossary of an English QC Barrister 'advising' in an African sovereign debt /dodging/ case: 'le patrimoine' > 'the patrimoine': a pool of assets, liabilities and interests available to the state in question.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 heures (2020-11-26 12:49:21 GMT)
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Asker questions 1.& 2. real estate or land, the latter de novo includes buildings in ENG law.
I once, in my journalistic time pre-move to Brussels, wrote real property in the Euro-business mag - to squeals of protest from my native-English fellow-journalists 'angrily in Tunbridge Wells' that there was no such thing. It was called real estate. I retorted that the law 'of real property' was one of my UK uni. undergrad ENG law subjects. Reply: 'Oh, well, we don't or wouldn't know about that'.
As per Daryo in the discussion entries, I had considered property- or land-related vs. pecuniary, 'patrimonial' arguably in law vs. common parlance e.g. buying '*a* property' > encompassing personal property / personalty like chattels or Scots law: movables, rather than pecuniary assets.
liquidation et le partage: of present vested *proprietary* interests vs. perhaps contingent, forced heirship interests to either of them under any Will of their respective in-laws...
PS in the UK, either spouse ordered by the court to submit an 'affidavit of means' would have to include such contingent interests of assets 'in spe', in hope....
capital-related would be covered by pécuniaire.
In the UK, this might be an 'ancillary relief' matter - namely one relating to custody of children & property division.
The problem with economic is that, in Anglo-Am. law, PEL: pure economic loss refers to pecuniary losses and property-related also includes money.
Again, according to the client's glossary of an English QC Barrister 'advising' in an African sovereign debt /dodging/ case: 'le patrimoine' > 'the patrimoine': a pool of assets, liabilities and interests available to the state in question.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 heures (2020-11-26 12:49:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Asker questions 1.& 2. real estate or land, the latter de novo includes buildings in ENG law.
I once, in my journalistic time pre-move to Brussels, wrote real property in the Euro-business mag - to squeals of protest from my native-English fellow-journalists 'angrily in Tunbridge Wells' that there was no such thing. It was called real estate. I retorted that the law 'of real property' was one of my UK uni. undergrad ENG law subjects. Reply: 'Oh, well, we don't or wouldn't know about that'.
As per Daryo in the discussion entries, I had considered property- or land-related vs. pecuniary, 'patrimonial' arguably in law vs. common parlance e.g. buying '*a* property' > encompassing personal property / personalty like chattels or Scots law: movables, rather than pecuniary assets.
liquidation et le partage: of present vested *proprietary* interests vs. perhaps contingent, forced heirship interests to either of them under any Will of their respective in-laws...
PS in the UK, either spouse ordered by the court to submit an 'affidavit of means' would have to include such contingent interests of assets 'in spe', in hope....
Example sentence:
IATE: fr dommage patrimonial EP en patrimonial loss
Coping strategies Divorce Economic consequences
Reference:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-patents/628772-opération-patrimonial.html
http://iate.europa.eu/search/standard/result/1606388337585/1
Note from asker:
| Thanks... one might put "real estate property" for clarification. But you seem to think it's broader than this. I inclined that way to begin with, but then encountered "intérêts pécuniaires et patrimoniaux": I'm not clear what distinction you think they're drawing there... |
| or "real property" ! |
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Daryo
: the question is only about "la date des effets patrimoniaux" not "intérêts patrimoniaux"
15 hrs
|
|
The translation needs to work consistently with both terms. That's why.
|
15 hrs
Francois Boye
United States
United States
Native in French
United States
An economic geek with social skills
Native in: French 
Works in: English to French, French to English, Spanish to English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
104
property effects
When a couple living in a community property state divorce, each spouse will receive an equal share of the property and will have equal liability over marital debts[i]. When a divorce occurs, community property dissolves because no spouse is contributing to the community property after separation
-1
16 hrs
Meridy Lippoldt
United States
United States
Native in English
Specializes in field
United States
MSL Translation Services
Native in: English
Works in: French to English, Spanish to English, Italian to English, and 1 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
4
Assets
I propose a general word that covers both patrimoine immobilier and personal effects
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Daryo
: what about the "effets" part???
1 hr
|
|
Hi. Thanks for your perspective. In my mind "effets" is superfluous and need not be translated.
|
-1
21 hrs
philgoddard
United States
United States
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United States
Six languages into flawless English
Native in: English
Works in: German to English, French to English, Spanish to English, and 4 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
286
division of assets
I think this is the clearest way of saying it. You could leave out "du divorce entre les époux", as it goes without saying.
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Daryo
: oversimplified - "the material consequences of the divorce" are more than simply "the division of assets" /chucking bits out according to your personal "style guide" is not a good idea in legalese, esp. when the bit you want to chuck out is a KEY element!
2 hrs
|
-1
18 hrs
French term (edited):
fixer la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux
set the date when the divorce will produce effects on the assets of the spouses
here effets = "consequences", as per ph-b's discussion.
after that date any joint assets/liabilities will be divided between the ex-spouses, i.e. the divorce will "produce (its) effects"
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Note added at 18 hrs (2020-11-27 03:18:21 GMT)
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la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux
=
la date à laquelle le divorce produira ses effets sur le patrimoine des époux
Quand le divorce prend-il effet ?
Article mis à jour le 04/05/2012
Auteur :Charles DEZAN, notaire assistant, titulaire du diplôme d'aptitude aux fonctions de notaire, expert en droit de la famille et droit immobilier
La date à laquelle le divorce prend effet est différente selon qu'il s'agit des relations entre les époux ou de leurs relations avec les tiers.
Les effets du divorce entre les époux
Le divorce produit ses effets lorsque le jugement est définitif, c'est-à-dire à partir du jour où il n’y a plus d’appel possible. C’est à cette date que le mariage est officiellement dissout et que les devoirs réciproques entre époux disparaissent.
Cependant, dans le cas du divorce par consentement mutuel, la convention homologuée peut fixer elle-même la date à laquelle se produisent ses effets dans les relations patrimoniales entre époux. La convention des époux peut avancer cette date. A défaut, ces effets se produisent à la date d’homologation de la convention.
Dans les autres cas de divorce, les effets patrimoniaux remontent à la date de l’ordonnance de non-conciliation. Cette rétroactivité des effets du divorce peut être poussée davantage si une séparation de fait des époux a précédé la procédure en divorce : à la demande d’un époux, le juge peut avancer les effets du divorce à la date où les époux ont cessé de cohabiter et de collaborer.
https://www.droitissimo.com/famille/divorce/procedure-divorc...
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Note added at 18 hrs (2020-11-27 03:21:12 GMT)
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here "le patrimoine" = all and any assets, not only real estate.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 45 mins (2020-11-27 09:10:10 GMT)
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CORRECTION
if you take into account
"La date à laquelle le divorce prend effet est différente selon qu'il s'agit des relations entre les époux ou de leurs relations avec les tiers."
in "la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux"
would be the date of "the patrimonial consequences of the divorce" ONLY between the spouses, not necessarily regarding third parties, so it would be:
fixer la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux
=
set the date when the divorce will produce effects between the spouses on their assets
or
set the date when the divorce will produce effects between the spouses regarding (/vis-à-vis) their assets
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2020-11-27 09:28:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
set the date when the divorce will produce effects between the spouses on (/regarding/vis-à-vis) their assets
after that date any joint assets/liabilities will be divided between the ex-spouses, i.e. the divorce will "produce (its) effects"
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 hrs (2020-11-27 03:18:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux
=
la date à laquelle le divorce produira ses effets sur le patrimoine des époux
Quand le divorce prend-il effet ?
Article mis à jour le 04/05/2012
Auteur :Charles DEZAN, notaire assistant, titulaire du diplôme d'aptitude aux fonctions de notaire, expert en droit de la famille et droit immobilier
La date à laquelle le divorce prend effet est différente selon qu'il s'agit des relations entre les époux ou de leurs relations avec les tiers.
Les effets du divorce entre les époux
Le divorce produit ses effets lorsque le jugement est définitif, c'est-à-dire à partir du jour où il n’y a plus d’appel possible. C’est à cette date que le mariage est officiellement dissout et que les devoirs réciproques entre époux disparaissent.
Cependant, dans le cas du divorce par consentement mutuel, la convention homologuée peut fixer elle-même la date à laquelle se produisent ses effets dans les relations patrimoniales entre époux. La convention des époux peut avancer cette date. A défaut, ces effets se produisent à la date d’homologation de la convention.
Dans les autres cas de divorce, les effets patrimoniaux remontent à la date de l’ordonnance de non-conciliation. Cette rétroactivité des effets du divorce peut être poussée davantage si une séparation de fait des époux a précédé la procédure en divorce : à la demande d’un époux, le juge peut avancer les effets du divorce à la date où les époux ont cessé de cohabiter et de collaborer.
https://www.droitissimo.com/famille/divorce/procedure-divorc...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 hrs (2020-11-27 03:21:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
here "le patrimoine" = all and any assets, not only real estate.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 45 mins (2020-11-27 09:10:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
CORRECTION
if you take into account
"La date à laquelle le divorce prend effet est différente selon qu'il s'agit des relations entre les époux ou de leurs relations avec les tiers."
in "la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux"
would be the date of "the patrimonial consequences of the divorce" ONLY between the spouses, not necessarily regarding third parties, so it would be:
fixer la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux
=
set the date when the divorce will produce effects between the spouses on their assets
or
set the date when the divorce will produce effects between the spouses regarding (/vis-à-vis) their assets
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2020-11-27 09:28:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
set the date when the divorce will produce effects between the spouses on (/regarding/vis-à-vis) their assets
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
philgoddard
: This is clumsy and long winded.
13 hrs
|
|
Yeah, sure ... why bother with understanding what is (and reproducing) the exact meaning of a legal text, as long you can indulge your obsession with chucking out bits of the ST ...
|
|
| neutral |
Adrian MM.
: The 'patrimonial' needs to work, contrary to your dissuasion, with both effects/ impacts & interests, whilst I can recall economic & property-related from set E&W textbooks on family law & matrimonial causes of yesteryear: Passingham & Bromley.
3 days 9 hrs
|
-1
1 day 5 hrs
AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Native in English
Specializes in field
United Kingdom
Sensible solutions
Native in: English (Variant: Wessexois)
Works in: French to English, English, English to French
Related KudoZ points
:
1355
ancillary relief (matters)
This is what I have always used
In English law, an application for financial relief following the presentation of a petition for divorce, nullity or judicial separation used to be described as ancillary relief. The term arose because the financial application was 'ancillary' to the petition.
Ancillary relief - Wikipedia
In English law, an application for financial relief following the presentation of a petition for divorce, nullity or judicial separation used to be described as ancillary relief. The term arose because the financial application was 'ancillary' to the petition.
Ancillary relief - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Ancillary_relief
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The legal term for a financial settlement is “ancillary relief”. The person who applies for ancillary relief is called the Applicant and the other spouse is the Respondent.
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www.sharingpensions.co.uk › stepbystep
Seperate from divorce, ancillary relief proceedings are concerned with the financial matters including the family home and pensions that typically represent the ...
In English law, an application for financial relief following the presentation of a petition for divorce, nullity or judicial separation used to be described as ancillary relief. The term arose because the financial application was 'ancillary' to the petition.
Ancillary relief - Wikipedia
In English law, an application for financial relief following the presentation of a petition for divorce, nullity or judicial separation used to be described as ancillary relief. The term arose because the financial application was 'ancillary' to the petition.
Ancillary relief - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Ancillary_relief
Feedback
About Featured Snippets
People also ask
What are ancillary matters?
Ancillary Matters deal with issues pertaining to custody care and control and access to the children; maintenance for spouse and child; division of matrimonial home; division of other matrimonial assets; and costs.20 Oct 2013
Ancillary Matters Hearing - Procedure for Ancillary Matters
www.singaporedivorcelawyer.com.sg › ancillary-matters-...
Search for: What are ancillary matters?
Can you get a decree absolute before a financial settlement?
What is a clean break order?
What is a form H in divorce?
What are ancillary powers?
What is an ancillary issue?
Feedback
Ancillary Relief | Department of Justice
www.justice-ni.gov.uk › articles › ancillary-relief
Pending further consideration, and with a view to empowering the parties involved in Ancillary Relief applications and ensuring that the overriding.
Discovery · Experts · Annex 1
ANCILLARY RELIEF FACTSHEET When a couple divorce, a ...
www.ellis-fermor.co.uk › uploads › 2015/12 › Ancillar...
The legal term for a financial settlement is “ancillary relief”. The person who applies for ancillary relief is called the Applicant and the other spouse is the Respondent.
Step-By-Step Guide UK | Divorce | Ancillary Relief Proceedings
www.sharingpensions.co.uk › stepbystep
Seperate from divorce, ancillary relief proceedings are concerned with the financial matters including the family home and pensions that typically represent the ...
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Daryo
: the specific date mentioned in the ST is about something else, see https://www.droitissimo.com/famille/divorce/procedure-divorc... - it's basically the date at which "living together" is considered as having ended.
2 hrs
|
Discussion
"... entre les époux ..."
THAT date will be relevant ONLY "between the spouses", not regarding third parties.
see:
La date à laquelle le divorce prend effet est différente selon qu'il s'agit des relations entre les époux ou de leurs relations avec les tiers.
https://www.droitissimo.com/famille/divorce/procedure-divorc...
IOW after that date there will be longer any "joint assets".
BTW, formulating the question as "fixer la date des effets patrimoniaux du divorce entre les époux" would have probably cut down the "à-peu-près" in answers ...