| A témához tartozó oldalak: < [1 2 3 4 5] | Kudoz: Posting both a competing answer and a disagree vote (doesn't feel right) Téma indítója: Fred Neild (X)
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| An excellent comparison ! | Nov 3, 2005 |
Rita Heller wrote:
A similar situation would be if someone asks you for directions on a corner and you and another person respond; you have lived in that neighborhood all your life and you know that his/her way will take the stranger down a one-way street and not get them to their desired destination. Should you say "don't listen to him" ? or just propose your answer and walk away?
The purpose of KUDOZ-participation is not to gather points or to show excessive courtesy to each other, but to help our colleagues with their translation.
When I am sure that a proposed translation is wrong I have to give an alert.
[Edited at 2005-11-03 14:36]
| | | | | "not for grading" or "no points" answer option | Nov 4, 2005 |
At present the asker can specify that answerers will not get points. Some answerers also 'unofficially' label their answers as not for grading. Maybe there is room for answerers to have an 'official' not-for-grading option, i.e. they will get no points even if their answer is accepted. This might provide a way to bypass peceived conflicts of interest.
Mind you, I don't really see an ethical issue here. If I see what I think is a blatantly wrong answer, I'll disagree with it (with justifica... See more At present the asker can specify that answerers will not get points. Some answerers also 'unofficially' label their answers as not for grading. Maybe there is room for answerers to have an 'official' not-for-grading option, i.e. they will get no points even if their answer is accepted. This might provide a way to bypass peceived conflicts of interest.
Mind you, I don't really see an ethical issue here. If I see what I think is a blatantly wrong answer, I'll disagree with it (with justification, of course). If I think I have a correct/useful answer, I'll give it. I tend to see these as separate actions, and certainly don't give out disagrees just to lower the score of a 'competing' answer. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I agree with both points | Nov 4, 2005 |
David Sirett wrote:
At present the asker can specify that answerers will not get points. Some answerers also 'unofficially' label their answers as not for grading. Maybe there is room for answerers to have an 'official' not-for-grading option, i.e. they will get no points even if their answer is accepted. This might provide a way to bypass peceived conflicts of interest.
That is a suggestion that I would very strongly support. It has been suggested before, but I hope this time it gets the attention it deserves.
David Sirett wrote:
Mind you, I don't really see an ethical issue here.
I agree with you that the word "ethical" is far too strong here. It is simply a conflict that feels unfair to the person receiving the disagree vote, but is not so obvious to the person placing the disagree vote (while posting a competing answer) because the intention behind it is, probably most of the time, wholly wholesome.
For this reason, and to clarify the subject matter of this excellent thread by Fred, I have changed its title to something more specific. I hope Fred does not mind.
| | | | | What`s this fuss about? (V) | Nov 4, 2005 |
Fuad Yahya wrote: David Sirett wrote:
Mind you, I don't really see an ethical issue here.
I agree with you that the word "ethical" is far too strong here. It is simply a conflict that feels unfair to the person receiving the disagree vote, but is not so obvious to the person placing the disagree vote (while posting a competing answer) because the intention behind it is, probably most of the time, wholly wholesome. For this reason, and to clarify the subject matter of this excellent thread by Fred, I have changed its title to something more specific. I hope Fred does not mind.
Hello Fuad,
Well, this makes much more sense. I had stated in my previous posting that there was no ethical issues involved as far as we relied on good faith of colleagues, and Proz moderators and staff.
Plase, go to
http://www.proz.com/post/275632#275632
http://www.proz.com/post/275754#275754
http://www.proz.com/post/275764#275764
http://www.proz.com/post/275767#275767
This title is more adecuated. Thank you.
Walter
[Edited at 2005-11-04 19:40]
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Fred Neild (X) 
angol - spanyol
+ ...
TÉMAINDÍTÓ | No problem! and my summarized position | Nov 4, 2005 |
Fuad Yahya wrote:
I hope Fred does not mind.
No problem!
Of course, 'KudoZ Ethics' was just sensationalism, but I don't think we need that anymore.
Since there are many postings and probably some are not eager to read all of them I would like to make clear that:
I think the 'disagree' option is very important.
When I proposed this topic I stated that a competing answerer who posted a 'disagree' would cause a 'conflict of interest' (regardless of the answerer's good or bad faith), so this attitude could be questionable.
After all the discussion with my colleagues I decided that a 'written label' stating this conflict of interest wouldn't eliminate it, but it would warn the asker, and give me peace of mind.
Please let me remind you this is just my opinion!
And there is another phrase in Spanish (for those who read all the postings) that says: "Para reconocer a un ladrón también hay que serlo" (In order to recognize a thief you need to be one too), or something like this.
This is all. For now.
| | | | Anna Haxen
Dánia
Local time: 13:14
Tag (2005 óta)
angol - dán
+ ...
| Is Kudoz a game? | Nov 7, 2005 |
This is what you find if you take a look at "About Kudoz":
'1. What is KudoZ?
KudoZ is a terms help network. Through KudoZ, ProZ.com members offer each other, and guests, free assistance in translating tough terms. Take a look at our flash introduction to learn more.'
Personally, if I were an asker, I would find all this talk about "conflict of interest" and "competition" disturbing. I mean, the whole point is to make sure the asker gets the correct answer ... See more This is what you find if you take a look at "About Kudoz":
'1. What is KudoZ?
KudoZ is a terms help network. Through KudoZ, ProZ.com members offer each other, and guests, free assistance in translating tough terms. Take a look at our flash introduction to learn more.'
Personally, if I were an asker, I would find all this talk about "conflict of interest" and "competition" disturbing. I mean, the whole point is to make sure the asker gets the correct answer to his/her question, isn't it?
In fact, it makes me want to propose a new Kudoz rule: If you have an alternative suggestion to a perfectly good answer, you do not post a separate answer, but provide the alternative as a comment to your "agree". That is, don't post a separate answer unless you think the answers already given are wrong or at least not quite right. A string of interchangeable answers (with attached tails of "agree" from the same people) may serve to confuse rather than help the asker.
If this rule were followed, we wouldn't even need the "disagree" option, because by posting a separate answer you indicate that you disagree with the ones given so far. And you can state your reasons for not agreeing in the "Explanation" box, or, later, by adding a note.
Likewise, by posting an "agree" to an answer given by someone else, you indicate that you disagree with the other answers given to the same question. (Now, there's an idea for another new rule - don't post "agree" to more than one answer - at least not without giving a reason for doing so!).
I know this may take some of the fun out of Kudoz, at least for some, which leads me back to where I started: Is Kudoz a game, or has it evolved into something it wasn't intended to be? ▲ Collapse
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Anna Haxen wrote:
This is what you find if you take a look at "About Kudoz":
'1. What is KudoZ?
KudoZ is a terms help network. Through KudoZ, ProZ.com members offer each other, and guests, free assistance in translating tough terms. Take a look at our flash introduction to learn more.'
... the whole point is to make sure the asker gets the correct answer to his/her question, isn't it?
Indeed, that is the "whole point," and this is a very noble view of KudoZ and one that we all try to promote.
It just happened that KudoZ is structured like a game, with participants proposing competing answers, peers supporting and challenging different answers with votes and comments, and askers declaring a winner and awarding points.
The idea behind this game-like structure was to provide an incentive and an element of fun, but, as is the case with all competitive activites, sometimes some participants go overboard. This can spoil the fun, become a disincentive to many, and, ultimately, defeat the very noble purpose that you articulated.
It is for this reason that some members occasionally speak up against some unfair competitive practices and propose ways to combat such behavior and promote the original noble purpose. Most such suggestions address the very structure of this game-like activity. The idea is to see if there isn't a way to eliminate some built-in opportunities for naughtiness.
Some suggestions have gone so far as to eliminate the competitive element altogether, while others have tried to streamline it by eliminating some features or adding new ones. This thread addresses one of many such suggestions, which, as you can see, become breeding grounds for other, equally interesting suggestions. Reasonable suggestions addressing nagging problems (constant headaches for moderators and site staff), have been known to get implemented when they receive a lot of support. That is the idea.
Askers should not be discouraged by such talk. Such discussions only show that ProZ.com care about KudoZ and want to make it the best that it could be. We know we can never make it "perfect" for everybody, but we can always look at ways to make it better.
When we dicuss such matters, we discuss them in very realistic terms, using such expressions as "abuse," "misuse," "unfair," "overcompetitive," "cheating," and "conflict of interest." They may seem like harsh terms, not suitable for elevated discussions about a noble activity, but if it is perceived that the activity is marred or spoiled by some practices, it is better to discuss them openly and in realistic terms.
[Edited at 2005-11-07 21:34]
| | | | | All about Proz | Nov 7, 2005 |
Much has been said and argued about KudoZ points grabbers, ethics, agrees/disagrees/neutral comments. I just happen to run into this wonderfully written, witty and thorough article http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/509/1/Con fessions-of-a-%27KudoZ-point-grabber%27
It has everything there is to it. Nothing can be added. I can suscribe it word by word... See more Much has been said and argued about KudoZ points grabbers, ethics, agrees/disagrees/neutral comments. I just happen to run into this wonderfully written, witty and thorough article http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/509/1/Con fessions-of-a-%27KudoZ-point-grabber%27
It has everything there is to it. Nothing can be added. I can suscribe it word by word. Congratulations to the author.
I STRONGLY RECOMMEND ALL THE COLLEAGUES AT ProZ.com TO READ IT ALL.
Please, allow me to quote just a few lines as a summary:
/quote/
"ttagir’s statement sums up very well what I have unconsciously felt for a long time: I am killing three birds with one stone.
1. I help
2. I prove myself
3. I leave traces that might help someone to choose me as
a translator
Further it’s maybe the best meeting place at ProZ.com. You
get to know your colleagues step by step "
/end of quote/
Stop this nonsense topic here. Be positive!
This is what KudoZ is about.
Walter Landesman ▲ Collapse
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