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liodonesis
Cajonero

Glossary entry

Spanish term or phrase:

personas sin estudios

English translation:

with little or no formal education

Added to glossary by patinba
Jan 22, 2018 14:39
6 yrs ago
6 viewers *
Spanish term

personas sin estudios

Spanish to English Science Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc. Neutral (non-offensive) terms for people
SPAIN. Looking for the current "politicially correct" term for this. It appears in an article about meat consumption.

"Aquellos consumidores que tienen una imagen más positiva de la carne son personas sin estudios o con estudios primarios, localizados en la zona española Central, North-Central, East and Barcelona..."
Proposed translations (English)
4 +7 without formal education
3 +4 individuals with no formal education
4 self-taught
3 +1 people without a basic education or primary education at most
3 illiterate persons o persons with only primary studies
References
Higher education, post-secondary educati...
Change log

Jan 23, 2018 20:50: patinba Created KOG entry

Discussion

David Hollywood Jan 22, 2018:
we've got another cutie on our hands and the nuances will be important
Helena Chavarria Jan 22, 2018:
I'm just thinking of the source text and different people's opinion of meat. The women I've met who left school at the age of 14 were taught how to cook and clean by their mothers. They prefer home-cooked food and eat meat practically every day - I know people who eat meat at lunch time and fish in the evening because that is what they learnt at home.

People with a higher level of education are well aware that eating too much meat isn't good for anybody and they try to eat more fruit and vegetables. In my experience, people with limited formal education find it difficult to change their eating habits.
JohnMcDove Jan 22, 2018:
@ Charles - thank you for your excellent and objective touch. I probably "overreacted" to the "political correctness" issue. That is probably what I don't totally get. The idea I get is that people ignorant of the side effects of meat have a more positive attitude towards it...
As far as "illiteracy" goes, this below would be close to my viewpoint,
http://www.vivirdiario.com/3/2/consecuencias-de-una-persona-...
From the above link,
Entonces qué pasa cuando una persona no estudia, primero que nada se debe definir una persona sin estudios, en pocas palabras, es aquella persona que en toda su vida ha recibido una educación y muy probablemente no sepa leer ni escribir, no obstante también una persona sin estudios se refiera a aquella que no recibió una educación universitaria.
Charles Davis Jan 22, 2018:
PC I don't think political correctness is an issue here. The context suggests that this term is being used in a purely factual statistical sense. The translation simply needs to be accurate, which of course means establishing exactly what "sin estudios" means in this context. I am now virtually sure it must mean no schooling here, not even primary. After all, the source I've just quoted has "estudios primarios incompletos" as a separate (and much larger) category. If it said "analfabetos", as such texts sometimes do, we should put "illiterate", but it doesn't, and they are not synonyms. People who have never been to school do sometimes learn to read, and occasionally people who do go to school fail to learn to read. "No education" would not be accurate, in my view, because education is not in principle confined to schooling. So "formal education" seems to me simply accurate, not PC.
Robert Carter Jan 22, 2018:
@Helena I imagine you're probably right in terms of Spain at least. I think my vision is skewed by living in Mexico, where there are still a surprisingly high number of people with "little or no formal education" as Muriel puts it. My wife works at an "escuela pública secundaria para trabajadores" here and although she receives fewer adult students each year (and more problem teenagers having another stab at "la secu"), this is to be expected in the capital. A shameful lack of investment in infrastructure and a shortfall of teachers willing to fill rural vacancies (with good reason, unfortunately, given the dangers of living in these areas) means schooling is still fairly problematic in the countryside.

On the other hand, the term "sin estudios" is used here informally and sometimes pejoratively to mean "uneducated", people or those who have only gone through primary school or who perhaps never finished secondary school or "prepa".
Charles Davis Jan 22, 2018:
Well... I've deleted my previous posts because having looked a bit at how the EPA (Encuesta de Población Activa) and the SPEE (Servicio Público de Empleo Estatal) use this term it does after all seem to mean without any formal education. It's a very small group but it does exist. Here's an example in the unemployment figures in Las Palmas de Gran Canaria in March 2012:

"Sin estudios 80
Estudios primarios incompletos 19.452
Estudios primarios 4.517
Educación secundaria 22.409
Estudios postsecundarios 6.010"
http://www.laspalmasgc.es/export/sites/laspalmasgc/.gallerie...

80 out of a total of 52,468 is a tiny proportion, about 0.15%, but it's not zero, and in that list there's really nothing else it can mean. Not all those people are necessarily illiterate, though presumably some are. And it's true, as I've said already, that nationally 1.75% of adult Spaniards are illiterate. So sorry for sounding off before without doing the necessary research. As has been said, in other contexts "sin estudios" doesn't usually mean this.
Carol Gullidge Jan 22, 2018:
Neil! I'm still trying to get my head round calling everyone in the acting profession - both male and female - "an actor". It just doesn't feel right to me, even if that is what they actually prefer and is perfectly logical!
neilmac (asker) Jan 22, 2018:
Academic texts in Europe ... do tend to be rather PC nowadays, especially in Education and Sociology texts. I'm personally fed up seeing nonsense like "alumnos y alumnas", but at least in English its just "pupils". I'm glad I posted this now, as it's brought to light some fine differences and definitions. Thanks to everyone for contributing :-)
Helena Chavarria Jan 22, 2018:
I'm convinced that 'sin estudios' in modern-day Spain means without formal qualifications, whether it is a university degree, hairdressing or a shop assistant course.

People used to say that my mother-in-law, who would now be nearly 100, 'tenía estudios'. She spent a year in Barcelona, 200 km from her home, studying to be a seamstress (modista). That must have been in the 1940s.

The people I know 'sin estudios' all went to school; they can run a home and drive, but would rather spend their free time reading a magazine or watching TV, instead of browsing the Internet or reading a book.
Carol Gullidge Jan 22, 2018:
Apologies for causing chaos! ... by accidentally posting a Disagree on Helena's Reference instead of one of the Answers. All this was done on a tiny screen, and I had been wondering what on earth had happened to my entry! A case of finger trouble and perhaps the need for a new pair of specs :(
JohnMcDove Jan 22, 2018:
Probably I am lacking the full context here, but "sin estudios" in the sentence, followed by "o con estudios primarios", seems to indicate to me that the person did not go to school. In the example of this blog, of course "sin estudios" does not mean "illiterate", and generally may not mean that.
http://ustedestaenserendip.blogspot.com/2007/11/gente-sin-es...
Probably I am missing the reason to be "politically correct" here, it's maybe because we live in this "polis" or this "Politically Correct Global Hamlet"... ;-)
Helena Chavarria Jan 22, 2018:
@Neil I think I would translate it as 'people without formal qualifications or who did not progress beyond basic education', though the second part doesn't convince me because it sounds like a translation!

What I'm trying to get across is that people 'without studies' went to school until leaving age but they don't have a degree or any other qualifications, such as vocational training. My next-door neighbour says she doesn't have 'estudios' but she told me she went to school and finished E.G.B. In fact I know a number of people in their 60s who all went to school but they couldn't afford to continue studying.
Helena Chavarria Jan 22, 2018:
I live in Catalonia and a person 'sin estudios' is someone who left school at the minimum leaving age, which used to be 14 (after Educación General Básica) and then it was changed to 16 (after Educación Secundaria Obligatoria).

A person 'sin estudios' is someone who went to school but has no formal qualifications.

Proposed translations

+7
4 mins
Selected

without formal education

Perhaps a polite way of saying "uneducated"

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Note added at 3 hrs (2018-01-22 18:05:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Bearing in mind that we seem to be dealing with a general press article on the meat-eating habits of the population, and not a treatise on education levels, I reckon that Muriel's suggested "little or no formal education" would fit your bill perfectly.
Note from asker:
Actually this is exactly what occurred to me about two minutes after posting the query... Tx :-)
Peer comment(s):
agree Muriel Vasconcellos : The larger phrase in the Asker's context could then be 'with little or no formal education'
11 mins
yes, that would be perfect in the context.
agree Robert Carter
12 mins
Thank you!
agree philgoddard
32 mins
Thanks!
agree Robert Forstag : Agree with Muriel.
40 mins
Thank you.
agree James A. Walsh
1 hr
Thanks, James.
agree JohnMcDove : Persons without education or little education. The Spanish "original" seems to me plain and direct. Don't see any kid gloves around. / I take that "with little or no formal education" would fit the bill. I "unneutralize" my "neutral". ;-)
2 hrs
Thank you John!
agree Charles Davis : Disagree with Muriel: "little education" is NOT acceptable here. It's too vague. "With no formal education or primary education (only)": that's what it says, and in this context accuracy trumps nice idiomatic phrase-making.
6 hrs
Ok, that's fine, but it still sounds like "little or no" to me
neutral David Hollywood : sorry but this is not enough
8 hrs
More than, I think.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks everyone for the input :-)"
+4
4 mins

individuals with no formal education

My take on it
Note from asker:
This answer is fine by me. In the end I gave the kudoz to the one with the most "agrees". Tx for posting :)
Peer comment(s):
agree Robert Carter
12 mins
Thank you, Robert.
agree James A. Walsh
1 hr
Thank you, James.
agree Sofia Bengoa
4 hrs
Thank you, Sofía.
neutral David Hollywood : again not enough
8 hrs
agree Marian Vieyra : 'with (little or) no formal education' sounds better than 'without formal...'
18 hrs
Thank you, Marian.
Something went wrong...
2 hrs

illiterate persons o persons with only primary studies

Like Pérez Reverte would write, "con ánimo de ofender".

I probably get 5 disagrees on this one, as I take this may be "politically incorrect", but in this case I would prefer to call a spade a spade

... son personas sin estudios o con estudios primarios,

... they are uneducated persons or persons who have only studied up to the age 14

El agua, clara y el chocolate, espeso.

Saludos cordiales. :-)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2018-01-22 17:21:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Oh, erratum: meant to write "or persons"
Peer comment(s):
neutral Yuriy Vilner (X) : Disagrees are so 20th century; everybody should get a medal. But you get my neutral by your referring to human beings as "illiterate." They're "systematically disadvantaged" and are therefore "self-taught."
1 hr
Thank you, Yuriy. :-) I might as well be illiterate, in the sense of "Uncultured or poorly educated." I consider myself a total moron in terms of talking Chinese, much less read it! ;-) Another thing would be "functionally illiterate".
Something went wrong...
12 mins

self-taught

If you're truly after political correctness, you'll avoid references to 'formal education,' since categorizing someone as lacking formal education carries the connotation of their being inferior to those who posses it.

I would thus use "self-taught." I acknowledge that this term severely deviates from the source, but therein lies the beauty of political correctness.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 mins (2018-01-22 14:56:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Self-educated works too.

Just for fun, here's a list of self-taught people who "made it": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_autodidacts

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs (2018-01-22 21:43:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

To be honest, this all started as a semi-joke for me, but some feel so compelled to debate the matter that I'll just leave the MW definition of "self-taught" for their consideration:

Definition of self-taught
1 : having knowledge or skills acquired by one's own efforts without formal instruction
2 : learned by oneself
Note from asker:
Interesting link, thanks.
Peer comment(s):
neutral JohnMcDove : The "beauty" of political correctness seems a fallacy to me. I understand that is what the asker wanted, but honestly, the Spanish does not refer to "self-taught" persons at all. It refers to illiterate or semi-illiterate people.
2 hrs
You're correct, yet what is PC itself is highly subjective. I wasn't looking for agreement with my answer, but wanted to put forth a PC alternative, and I feel it's valid. If one isn't formally taught then one, according to PC culture, is "self-taught"
neutral Carol Gullidge : Self-taught has a specific meaning. By definition, self education often involves a good deal of study (often for the purpose of gaining qualifications) and therefore cannot be equated with "sin estudios", as those on your List would no doubt agree
3 hrs
Carol, the distinction here is "formal studies" vs. "no formal studies". If we're talking about the "no formal studies" group and we want to refer to them in a wholly PC way, as the asker clearly requested, then "self-taught" is a valid answer.
neutral David Hollywood : no it's not
8 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
8 hrs

people without a basic education or primary education at most

I think this covers all bases
Peer comment(s):
agree MollyRose : In the context, I think this fits the sentence well.
44 mins
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

Higher education, post-secondary education, or third level education is an optional final stage of formal learning that occurs after completion of secondary education. Often delivered at universities, academies, colleges, seminaries, conservatories, and institutes of technology, higher education is also available through certain college-level institutions, including vocational schools, trade schools, and other career colleges that award academic degrees or professional certifications. Tertiary education at non-degree level is sometimes referred to as further education or continuing education as distinct from higher education.

In the days when few pupils progressed beyond primary education or basic education, the term "higher education" was often used to refer to secondary education, which can create some confusion. This is the origin of the term high school for various schools for children between the ages of 14 and 18 (United States) or 11 and 18 (UK and Australia).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_education

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2018-01-22 16:44:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Formal vs. Informal Education

Formal education is classroom-based, provided by trained teachers. Informal education happens outside the classroom, in after-school programs, community-based organizations, museums, libraries, or at home.

http://enhancinged.wgbh.org/started/what/formal.html

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Note added at 2 hrs (2018-01-22 16:54:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Formal education is usually organised as full time education and is organised as a continuous process with defined stages. Formal education encompasses primary, lower and upper secondary education, higher and university education that culminate in the achievement of a degree or a professional qualification or diploma or a recognised certification as well as adult education programmes.

http://www.young-adulllt.eu/glossary/listview.php?we_objectI...

A formal education is what students learn in a traditional classroom. It’s the organized method of learning being administered by a government body. This formal education must be an institution that’s accredited where the curriculum needs to follow the customary standards of academia. This type of education usually begins around age 4 and can stretch all the way through college.

http://community.today.com/parentingteam/post/formal-vs-info...
Note from asker:
Yep, translating international educational classifications can be a bit of a minefield at the best of times…
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Carol Gullidge : This would be quite misleading, even for political correctness! Sorry, this Disagree was supposed to be posted elsewhere, under "Self taught"! Oh, the joys of working on a tiny screen! Many apologies!
54 mins
In Spain 'sin estudios' does NOT mean that a person hasn't received fromal education; i.e. they haven't been to school. All the same, thank you for your opinion // Carol, please don't worry about it; these things happen :-)
agree JohnMcDove : I fully agree with the fact that "they haven't been to school"... "Formal" or "otherwise" they are i-l-l-i-t-e-r-a-t-e. I rather spell it out, instead of capitalizing it, for sake of political correctness... ;-)
1 hr
No, it definitely doesn't mean illiterate. It means they left school as soon as they had finished compulsory education. Thank you, John :-)
agree Charles Davis : I'm no longer so sure; see discussion.
2 hrs
Thank you, Charles :-)
agree Yvonne Gallagher
1 day 7 hrs
Thank you, Gallagy :-)
Something went wrong...
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