| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Launch of TAUS/TDA inminent. The super cloud Thread poster: Felipe Gútiez Velasco
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| Soviet Union... not for me! | Dec 5, 2008 |
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
At the meeting in Zurich (and this is also very clear in the home page) it was clear (Jaap stated it very clear) that there will be "legitimate" data in the plattform.
Good. This is the kind of clear answers we all need, instead of expressions of joy because the world is becoming more and more "TEAM" (Toll! Ein Anderer Macht's).
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
With translations being cheap and available to everybody, then everybody, any of you, can publish a website in 180 languages without fear of being misunderstood and can push new ideas (and make money, why not?) worldwide, any person, not just big companies.
Felipe, you know that this is just another marketing bun with little meat in it. Just try to do what you suggest. I challenge you to write a 5.000-word website and translate it with this system in a cheap way (I am not being sarcastic; just meaning "low cost") not into 180 languages. Let's agree just 15 languages. If you make it for under two hundred euros, I promise I will send you a bottle of a reasonably good Spanish wine.
As for considering the use of a global resource in the way you describe it, I must insist: I see no use for it in my work, unless all automotive manufacturers decide to use the same motor, all paper manufacturers decide to make the same paper and try to sell with the same approach, all prepress manufacturers decide to use the same techology... And that's not going to happen because the difference is what makes a brand stand out from competitors.
I will gladly start to use this system if the world becomes a Soviet Union: the same [poor quality] items for everyone... only if and when we are able to make them!
(Edited to update the title).
[Edited at 2008-12-05 06:57 GMT]
| | | | | TEAM (I didn´t know the German meaning of it) Great!!! :-) | Dec 5, 2008 |
But Tomás, it starts in January, if you don´t use it and everybody uses it you will be in disadvantage, don´t you think?
It costs for freelancers 50 Euros/year and for companies 250 EUR/year
And don´t forget: ProZ is a member!!!!!
[Editado a las 2008-12-05 07:45 GMT]
| | | | | A closer look at the list of companies | Dec 5, 2008 |
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
But Tomás, it starts in January, if you don´t use it and everybody uses it you will be in disadvantage, don´t you think?
Let me answer your question with a combined question:
- In the list of companies, do you see any manufacturer in automotive?
- Any prepress or industrial printing?
- Any electrical equipment?
- Any forestry?
- Any industrial equipment?
- Any pulp and paper?
- Any environmental?
- Any robots?
I think the answer is no in all cases... I only see IT companies and their biggest language providers. It is an industry I am not specially interested in long-term. Not being in the system does not sound like a disadvantage to me. In fact, it could well be an advantage: many translators (active or new) could feel lured by the easy, "big business" of reusing big IT-related memories for a very low fee and might let the trickier stuff go, precisely the stuff I enjoy to translate.
In any case, let's meet here in 3 years time to reassess the situation. I will tell you whether I am doing better or worse as a translator, and you do the same. What do you think?
AND... what can Proz contribute to the memory? To me, Proz might serve as an outlet of paid, simplified access to the database, or maybe a contributor of crowdsourced terminology (via Kudoz and glossary-building questions). When the time comes, I will evaluate if the extra service and extra fee is interesting to me, the same way I evaluate any other service or dictionary.
[Edited at 2008-12-05 09:06 GMT]
| | | | | Felipe, what about my challenge?? | Dec 5, 2008 |
Tomás wrote:
Felipe, you know that this is just another marketing bun with little meat in it. Just try to do what you suggest. I challenge you to write a 5.000-word website and translate it with this system in a cheap way (I am not being sarcastic; just meaning "low cost") not into 180 languages. Let's agree just 15 languages. If you make it for under two hundred euros, I promise I will send you a bottle of a reasonably good Spanish wine.
Felipe, you did not respond to my challenge. Not interested? It would be a good proof-of-concept exercise...
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| cheap translations? No, thanks! | Dec 5, 2008 |
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
It costs for freelancers 50 Euros/year and for companies 250 EUR/year
And don´t forget: ProZ is a member!!!!!
[Editado a las 2008-12-05 07:45 GMT]
This one sounds like a piece of advertisement, dont you think?
Why are you insisting on everybody's joining so much? Although you are mostly addressing Tomas I feel like being imposed something that I dont want to do. This topic was raised in the past and I think now everybody is capable of deciding themselves if they should join or not.
ProZ may be or may not be a member but it makes a little difference to me because I make my own business decisions.
With translations being cheap and available to everybody
That's exactly how this organization is going to treat translators: cheap and available labor force.
Best,
Andrei
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Andrei Yefimov wrote: Felipe wrote:
With translations being cheap and available to everybody That's exactly how this organization is going to treat translators: cheap and available labor force.
Andrei, if Felipe does not accept my challenge his bottle of reasonably good Spanish wine will go to you! You made me laugh!
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Andrei, if Felipe does not accept my challenge his bottle of reasonably good Spanish wine will go to you! You made me laugh!
I am glad you like it:) However, I do not think I deserve your wine just because I have made you laugh. This would be too much rude of me to accept such a precious gift by doing almost nothing. I hope Felipe will accept your ... See more Andrei, if Felipe does not accept my challenge his bottle of reasonably good Spanish wine will go to you! You made me laugh!
I am glad you like it:) However, I do not think I deserve your wine just because I have made you laugh. This would be too much rude of me to accept such a precious gift by doing almost nothing. I hope Felipe will accept your challenge:)
Best,
Andrei ▲ Collapse
| | | | | How would you feel... | Dec 5, 2008 |
...if your client tried to sell you access to the TM you helped create?
I would be disgusted...
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| Relinquishing copyright is enough | Dec 5, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
...if your client tried to sell you access to the TM you helped create?
I would be disgusted...
Indeed. And in fact we reliquish copyright to our customers every day. I think that translators who work or have worked for the agency members of TAUS should have free access to the database. After all, they accepted to give away their copyright on the translation...
| | | | Maria Karra 
United States
Local time: 08:43
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
| question to Felipe | Dec 5, 2008 |
This was directed to Tomás:
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
I very much hope that you will reconsider your intention of non joining the plattform.
May I ask why? Why is this your hope? Is there something in it for you? I'm just curious.
| | | | | I think you are addressing the wrong clientele | Dec 6, 2008 |
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
With translations being cheap and available to everybody, then everybody, any of you, can publish a website in 180 languages without fear of being misunderstood and can push new ideas (and make money, why not?) worldwide, any person, not just big companies. You can offer for example your very complex service and know how as translators to any company in any world language. In that way, this is also good for you as an experienced and especialised translator. There are many ways in which change can be used for better, you just have to figure out how.
Like Maria, I am also wondering what your true interest is in this matter, Felipe.
In fact, the above quote seems to indicate that your interest in all this is that of an outsourcer, not that of a translator. Therefore, you may be posting in the wrong forum. I am sure that, except for you, nobody in this thread, or even in the most part of the entire forum, will find that "cheap translations" that are "available to everybody" are in any way good for the translator community. The only thing I find surprising is that the contributors of this thread don't seem to have picked up on this.
I doubt you will find any sympathy here for what you seem to be trying to convince us of...
So, Felipe, are you interested in this as a translator or as an outsourcer looking to get translations done at dirt cheap rates?
[Edited at 2008-12-06 01:32 GMT]
| | | | | Trying to respond all the questions | Dec 7, 2008 |
First: I am a translator. I translate from German, English and French into Spanish. I have translated for many companies in Europe, specially in Germany and earn my livings as a translator. I like good translations and I think that a good translation is in most cases a translation in which many people have participated, even if the participation was just a word correction or something like that. People egosum are in most cases bad translators. The most important quality a translator has to have ... See more First: I am a translator. I translate from German, English and French into Spanish. I have translated for many companies in Europe, specially in Germany and earn my livings as a translator. I like good translations and I think that a good translation is in most cases a translation in which many people have participated, even if the participation was just a word correction or something like that. People egosum are in most cases bad translators. The most important quality a translator has to have is humility to hear other possibilities, and finally language is something that change continually (it is very democratic because is made by use of the people). Language is people-based, not experts-based. Humility is for translators something essential.
Second: Victoria raised a very important point. Motivation. Why should a super cloud be done? Why am I for it? The reason is quite simple and you find it everyday in your work. Why translate something twice? Give me a reason, a good reason why should we translate the same sentence twice if someone, somewhere has already translated it once. Why shouldn´t we collaborate ? Now with Internet and a good plattform is so easy!!!! Tell me why not, give me a good reason and I will be on your side.
Third: Well, my original idea was that experts should be at the forefront of creating a global memory or super cloud, but I think that something crowded-based and expert-based could also work. Experts make the proposition and people vote for the terminology.
Four: I am sure that maps shops and publishing houses like Falk looked first with horror at the Navigation systems. But now they sell Navigation systems too. Is just like that, you have to adapt or die, is not just a problem of the translation industry. It is everywhere.
Fifth: companies of other industrial areas will join, and very quick. Why should´t they join?
"Any prepress or industrial printing?
- Any electrical equipment?
- Any forestry?
- Any industrial equipment?
- Any pulp and paper?
- Any environmental?
- Any robots?" (quoting Tomás question)
They will all join, I am 100% sure.
Sixth: terminology. In the meeting of Zurich some people express the idea that for some companies terminology is an asset and they like "the difference". I find this a complete nonsense. If two products and two systems are identical they should use the same widely-democratically-by use-created terminology, not just because of "the difference". Do companies own the language? This is nonsense and will go nowhere, in my humble opinion. Should you oblige people to call something a way just because terminology is "a company asset"?
Finally: the fine tuning of the system and revision of texts is what will make the difference in the future, and this is something that very good translators should not fear. I think very soon the work of a translator will be revision and terminology. For these areas there will be still a need.
What is difficult is start a project like this, for all languages and all words of the world. I admire Jaap for his vision and tenacity. Maybe it could have been more beautiful if translators would have started and owned it, but with the opinions expressed in ProZ, for example, this seems almost impossible. It is important to join and coordinate efforts.
I have proposed Jaap to have web meetings where ProZ member and any person interested could participate (if possible with a web cam or the like). Physical meetings are expensive. Not always the people with most money have the best ideas.....
[Editado a las 2008-12-07 12:16 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| Talking about LISA | Dec 7, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
May I add that I don't quite see how they can say that, when most of us use translation memory tools (a technology specifically created for translation, with a degree of complexity and specialisation comparable to accounting, CRM, stock exchange tools, etc.), computerised glossaries, localisation and testing tools, translation-specific standadisation organisations like LISA, or communities like Proz and other sites??
[Edited at 2008-12-04 16:43 GMT]
Just for your information, Tomás, Jaap Van der Meer was the founder of LISA.
LISA is trying to publish a global terminological database in January.
I would very much like that all efforts done and to do should be unified or at least coordinated. It makes sense, don´t you think?
If my motivation is not translate twice the same sentence, for the same reason it would be better not to create two terminogical databases that are almost absolutely the same.
It is like writting twice "Romeo and Julia" or "El Quijote".
What do you think?
The more I analize the competition and capitalist system, the more ilogical I find it in some aspects. But you just have to open the internet and you have millions of dictionaries with practically the same words. Makes this sense?
And again I would ask you: what kind of global TM or super cloud do you like?
I can assure you that your answers will be analyzed and taking into account to create the plattform. You can have a say if you express your opinions. This forum is a way, there are others of course.
| | | | | Could not resist... | Dec 7, 2008 |
I did try to be strong. I tried to resist. I asked God for help. But I am weak, I am human! I could not resist commenting on some of the things you say Felipe. Please see below. I will try to be as concise as possible.
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
I like good translations and I think that a good translation is in most cases a translation in which many people have participated...
Not in my experience. I often use translation memories containing segments that were translated, edited, proofread and verified for mechanics by different people... and they are still incorrect translations plagued with bad interpretation and other problems, whereas using a good, experienced translator in the first place produces a translation that is much better than the one done by a long list of people who did not know/did not care. I am sure most people have similar experiences here.
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
People egosum are in most cases bad translators.
As I have expressed at least once in the past, you seem to be a true master at showing disrespect to people who don't agree with you. I know you say these things because you genuinely believe them, but I only wish you were willing to treat your peers as adults.
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Why translate something twice? Give me a reason, a good reason why should we translate the same sentence twice if someone, somewhere has already translated it once. Why shouldn´t we collaborate ? Now with Internet and a good plattform is so easy!!!! Tell me why not, give me a good reason and I will be on your side.
Honestly Felipe, as I have told you many times: you don't listen. But I will try one more time (maybe one last time, I don't know). A powerful reason: Have you ever heard of context, target audience, style, tone...? I am sure you have. It appears to me that you try to hide the facts to yourself because you love toying with the "global memory" idea... or desperately desire to be in it. Are you bored of being a translator Felipe? I would like to know. I mean it.
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Sixth: terminology. In the meeting of Zurich some people express the idea that for some companies terminology is an asset and they like "the difference". I find this a complete nonsense.
In my opinion, you are ignoring (intentionally, I hope) that language is a powerful tool. Alter the language, and you will alter the minds. Alter the minds, and the language will be altered. It's so deeply linked to the human nature, the history of societies and marketing practices that it strikes me that you are trying to hide or forget this fact. It makes perfect sense that every company use their approach and philosophy in how they use the language in their communications. I say no to a Soviet Union of Language!
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Finally: the fine tuning of the system and revision of texts is what will make the difference in the future, and this is something that very good translators should not fear. I think very soon the work of a translator will be revision and terminology. For these areas there will be still a need.
I wish you good luck in becoming a reviewer! I have a different goal and opinion. Translation has a long way ahead. Let's meet here in 3 years time and let's analyse the market again.
| | | | | More Soviet Union? | Dec 7, 2008 |
Felipe Gútiez wrote:
The more I analize the competition and capitalist system, the more ilogical I find it in some aspects. But you just have to open the internet and you have millions of dictionaries with practically the same words. Makes this sense?
Still living in the Soviet Union. There are tons of dictionaries because the people who created them thought they have something new or different to offer. We should let them do it. It makes perfect sense because freedom makes perfect sense.
Why do you think letting each person and team do their projects the way they like or wish does not make sense? You are not forced to use their services, are you?
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