| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | the loss of mother tongue Thread poster: 633310 (X)
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| In case of the Thai language | Aug 17, 2010 |
Bin Tiede wrote:
Being away from my home country for more than 15 years, my command of the Chinese grammar is as good as before and I can still write beautifully fluent Chinese sentences without giving away my location. What my language most suffers is my vocabulary, which stays at the 1990s. I haven't been able to build a real native feeling to some Chinese words I learned later, and they are as foreign to me as my second language. As a result, I never use these words actively.
A few years ago I installed a satellite receiver at home, which enables me to get TV programs directly from China. Since then I have been watching Chinese news so long every day, until I get really fed up with those political propagandas.
If being a good translator were the utmost goal in my life, I would have moved back long ago.
The Thai language has many weak points. We do not have paragraph writing lessons in elementary school [on how to write as efficiently as to speak our native language.] Foreign language e.g. Chinese, English influence our grammars and it can be observed clearly e.g. placing participle clause at the head of sentence, use of passive voice (they are seldom used in Thai). I expect our native language education to have more enthusiasm on standardizing the language identity. I taught university students for about 10 years and found that technical students' writing skill was the worst: they carelessly mix En phrasal key words in Thai sentences to confuse the Thai grammar pattern badly. This becomes even worse if they happen to work and stay abroad. In addition, for translation profession, we do not have cpmpetent education institutions.
Best regards,
Soonthon Lupkitaro
| | | | | Another question | Aug 24, 2010 |
Dear Tetyana!
Imagine a different situation. You're not going away abroad but just to another region of the same country. Of course, in this "another" region there will be a different language - these or that words or the speech speed, emphasis, etc. So, having lived there for several years, you also begin to use the vocabulary, emphasis used in the "new" region. Then, a few years later you return to your native region, and discover that you understand not everything You hear, and y... See more Dear Tetyana!
Imagine a different situation. You're not going away abroad but just to another region of the same country. Of course, in this "another" region there will be a different language - these or that words or the speech speed, emphasis, etc. So, having lived there for several years, you also begin to use the vocabulary, emphasis used in the "new" region. Then, a few years later you return to your native region, and discover that you understand not everything You hear, and you are also do not fully understand. Isn't?
If one continue this thought it became clear that the person who live abroad when speaking his native language will use the grammatical forms of the language environment he or she is surrounded. It looks like my this English speech - it is kinda "Russian English" . In other words - it is English but in the Russian way of thinking. And of course with some errors. The same situation is observed with the people who live abroad and trying to speak their native language after a period of not using it - with the "use" of foreign language forms. Here lies the main problem. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Troubles with reviews | Aug 25, 2010 |
Lingua 5B wrote: Tetyana Lavrenchuk wrote:
But is this true that an immigrated translator is not so good at translation as the one living in the country of the target language (as soon as the most part of translators translate into their mother tongue)? Can we really forget our language? I know there are a lot of translators on this site who do not live in their countries of origin, what are the advantages in being an immigrated translator? What do you do in order not to forget your mother tongue? Or this problem is not relevent to you?
I've reviewed translations done by immigrated translators that contained some cardinal errors in the language that's supposed to be their mother tongue ( the type of errors indicated to me very precisely that these translators had been from immigrant families). But not only that, immigrants who didn't have any formal training in translation, but instead can only "speak and understand" both languages.
My translation technique is continually updated through a series of training, seminar, publication etc. in the home countries. My legal text translation was once criticized badly by a Thai-cousine-instructor/housewife living in Colorado, USA (I happened to know her status through errors in the agency). I was surprised with her weird comments. Many of my translations were rejected by agencies' reviewers. I found they were immigrated translators. Their one advantage is service at agency's business hours (e.g. European and American time zones). My translations were rejected by an agency who had used my jobs for 4 years since the newly hired translators (as assessed by me) were paid lower; they were women marrying in European countries without suitable training on Thai/Japanese academic document writing styles. The agencies should take responsibility of such flaws.
Soonthon Lupkitaro
| | | | Nicole Schnell 
United States
Local time: 04:33
English to German
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In memoriam | Losing your mother tongue? A myth. | Aug 25, 2010 |
Translators who are living abroad and start mixing up grammatical structures probably shouldn't be translators in the first place.
I see more bizarro grammar from native Germans who neatly live in their home country, yet have the awful habit of translating too literally. My pet peeve: "In 1995" and such garbage.
I was 35 when I moved to the US, and I consider the fact of living abroad a tremendous advantage for a translator because I can distinguish any little degree i... See more Translators who are living abroad and start mixing up grammatical structures probably shouldn't be translators in the first place.
I see more bizarro grammar from native Germans who neatly live in their home country, yet have the awful habit of translating too literally. My pet peeve: "In 1995" and such garbage.
I was 35 when I moved to the US, and I consider the fact of living abroad a tremendous advantage for a translator because I can distinguish any little degree in any expression without having to consult a dictionary.
Also, my native language is not infested with colloquial or regional flavors any longer. Living abroad triggers tremendous discipline.
Losing my language or my vocabulary? Nonsense. On the contrary: I am reading publications that I would have never read before because when living in your home country you rather tend to listen than to read. My vocabulary has grown. ▲ Collapse
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:33
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Nicole Schnell wrote:
My pet peeve: "In 1995" and such garbage.
What's wrong with "In 1995"?
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 04:33
English to German
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In memoriam | When in German | Aug 25, 2010 |
Tom in London wrote: Nicole Schnell wrote:
My pet peeve: "In 1995" and such garbage. What's wrong with "In 1995"?
... it is a horrible anglizism. Backtranslated from German it should read "in the year 1995", otherwise someone should smack a book or something on the translator's head.
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Nicole Schnell wrote: Tom in London wrote: Nicole Schnell wrote:
My pet peeve: "In 1995" and such garbage. What's wrong with "In 1995"? ... it is a horrible anglizism. Backtranslated from German it should read "in the year 1995", otherwise someone should smack a book or something on the translator's head.
I don't know German, only a few words , but I really want to hear (if I were a German speaker) how does Herr Arnold Schwarzenegger speak German now, as he is from Austria if I am not mistaken.
Does anybody hear how does Mila Jovovich speak Russian? She was born in Kiev (Russian-speaking city) and lived there for 5 years.
2 Nicole Schnell: You are right. Not all people mix grammatical structures. But! The exception just confirms the rule.
| | | | | Forgetting mother tongue? | Aug 25, 2010 |
Many interesting contributions.
No, you will not forget your first language. You may get a bit rusty, but on returning to your country of origin you will soon pick up the latest influences -- and you may get a laugh when using expressions that are no longer fashionable.
However, it is a fact that on becoming senile some people lose a language that was acquired at a mature age. This can become a tragic problem, eg, in mixed marriages, where a spouse loses an acquired l... See more Many interesting contributions.
No, you will not forget your first language. You may get a bit rusty, but on returning to your country of origin you will soon pick up the latest influences -- and you may get a laugh when using expressions that are no longer fashionable.
However, it is a fact that on becoming senile some people lose a language that was acquired at a mature age. This can become a tragic problem, eg, in mixed marriages, where a spouse loses an acquired languge and is unable to communicate with the family. ▲ Collapse
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Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 04:33
English to German
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In memoriam | Rusty in terms of pronunciation | Aug 25, 2010 |
George Hopkins wrote:
Many interesting contributions.
No, you will not forget your first language. You may get a bit rusty, but on returning to your country of origin you will soon pick up the latest influences -- and you may get a laugh when using expressions that are no longer fashionable.
However, it is a fact that on becoming senile some people lose a language that was acquired at a mature age. This can become a tragic problem, eg, in mixed marriages, where a spouse loses an acquired languge and is unable to communicate with the family.
I have been married for 13 years now to a man who does not speak a single word German. We never bothered. So, when the phone rings and and German folks, friends, clients are on the other end of the line, I may roll the famous "R" differently during the first seconds, which makes everyone burst out in laughter, which in return leads to pleasant conversations with lots of giggles. Written language doesn't know accents.
| | | | nrdawe2 (X)
Local time: 13:33
Italian to English
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| Will my English go downhill? I'm not sure | Aug 27, 2010 |
Tom, I miss speaking English too! I find radio, newspapers and books in English helps, but it is not the same thing. I have been living in Italy for two years now (before I lived in France for two years), working in-house where I speak Italian all day, and I have not noticed any major problems with my English, obviously because 4 years is not that long and I have been living with another English speaker for two of those years. However, I would like to see what happens with my English if my flatm... See more Tom, I miss speaking English too! I find radio, newspapers and books in English helps, but it is not the same thing. I have been living in Italy for two years now (before I lived in France for two years), working in-house where I speak Italian all day, and I have not noticed any major problems with my English, obviously because 4 years is not that long and I have been living with another English speaker for two of those years. However, I would like to see what happens with my English if my flatmate leaves, which means I will end up speaking only Italian. I am not sure how this will have an effect on my English. Having said that, on rare occasions I have had some minor problems with deciding which preposition to use when a different one is used in Italian and I am not sure if this is just because I am translating and have seen how the sentence is constructed in Italian and whether, if I was just speaking naturally, I would have had the same problem.
However, I do think that because when you are using another language that you speak well for most of your day and you speak without having to make a great deal of effort, you end up mixing things up between the languages. I had an Israeli friend with near-native English (apart from the accent!) who lived in London and she said she would use English expressions in Hebrew by mistake. I would like to keep my English fresh. If I stay here I will definitely invest in Sky with British tv programmes . At the moment I read online newspapers every day and I read books in English only. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Mixing languages | Aug 27, 2010 |
Bibish wrote:
However, I do think that because when you are using another language that you speak well for most of your day and you speak without having to make a great deal of effort, you end up mixing things up between the languages. I had an Israeli friend with near-native English (apart from the accent!) who lived in London and she said she would use English expressions in Hebrew by mistake. I would like to keep my English fresh. If I stay here I will definitely invest in Sky with British tv programmes . At the moment I read online newspapers every day and I read books in English only.
I agree. I spent above 11 years in Japan to study. My native Thai language was badly mixed 1) I speak Thai quicker 2) I use wrong grammar structure while speaking 3) I cannot remind of some frequent slangs 4) I spoke in indirect and very humble style 5) I used weird vocabulary due to direct interpretation from Japanese etc. These were influenced by Japanese, and they disappeared when I permanently returned to Thailand. Today we have satellite TV, Internet, website etc. and we can refresh the mother tongue daily but we still confuse ourselves as long as we are fluent in more than one languages
Soonthon Lupkitaro
| | | | Inga Petkelyte
Portugal
Local time: 12:33
Lithuanian to Portuguese
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| Right on the spot | Aug 28, 2010 |
I find this topic very actual, at least for me these days. Just was reflecting, these past weeks, who am I ?...
If leaving translations aside, I am a Lithuanian up to the bottom of my heart, in all daily aspects. However, when it comes to translations, that question doesn't provide a straight answer.
I've been living in Portugal for past 10 years, working with Portuguese and among Portuguese, besides of many other different nationalities, I speak and write in Portuguese... See more I find this topic very actual, at least for me these days. Just was reflecting, these past weeks, who am I ?...
If leaving translations aside, I am a Lithuanian up to the bottom of my heart, in all daily aspects. However, when it comes to translations, that question doesn't provide a straight answer.
I've been living in Portugal for past 10 years, working with Portuguese and among Portuguese, besides of many other different nationalities, I speak and write in Portuguese daily and not a "kitchen-level" blah-blah-blah but highly technical professional language. Even my boss or business partners have remarked several times, not trying to praise myself, that my "Portuguese is far better than of very many native Portuguese". On the other hand, my communication in Lithuanian is limited: a daily on-line, a business meeting now and then and... the "kitchen-level" blah-blah-blah.
I have to admit: in legal texts, I am good in both languages. But in technical, I am much better in Portuguese.
However, when I approach translation agencies in Europe or US, the judgment is short and clear: translation must be done into native language.
So what is the native language for an immigrated translator ? The one that the mother gave and you are loosing it in bits or the one that became your second mother tongue and you feel competent to work with? ▲ Collapse
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Kaspars Melkis
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:33
English to Latvian
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| I agree with Nicole | Aug 29, 2010 |
that if you have a professional interest in your native language, it will never deteriorate. I lived in the US for 3 years and never lacked opportunities to use my native language there:
1) speaking with friends and relatives on Skype
2) reading online news
3) writing articles and letters to the same online newspapers
4) listening online radio
5) downloading songs and movies in native language
6) purchasing native language books (dictionaries, technic... See more that if you have a professional interest in your native language, it will never deteriorate. I lived in the US for 3 years and never lacked opportunities to use my native language there:
1) speaking with friends and relatives on Skype
2) reading online news
3) writing articles and letters to the same online newspapers
4) listening online radio
5) downloading songs and movies in native language
6) purchasing native language books (dictionaries, technical literature, fiction) online to be shipped to my address in the US
And now with ebooks on the rise it is becoming even easier than ever before.
When I returned to Latvia I had acquired slight accent which quickly disappeared. But I had no grammatical or lexical distortions in written language. In careless spoken language sometimes I use English words instead of proper Latvian equivalents but it is perfectly in line with the general tendency in Latvia.
While in the US I had little contact with other Latvian speakers locally. I suspect that native language degradation often happens within such communities where you feel at home and accept all changes and influence as natural. It is harder to keep two native language versions separate than two widely different languages.
[Edited at 2010-08-29 15:10 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Inga Petkelyte
Portugal
Local time: 12:33
Lithuanian to Portuguese
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| Not speaking about distortions | Aug 30, 2010 |
No, I was not speaking about any grammatical or lexical distortions, far from my case, neither an accent I ever had.
Just when you learn something, you learn it in the new environment, in the new language that surrounds you. At the same time, your operational memory switches from your mother tongue to the new linguistic surrounding.
For instance, in a telecommunication infrastructures translation, I needed to search terms in Lithuanian, while in Portuguese, I just know ... See more No, I was not speaking about any grammatical or lexical distortions, far from my case, neither an accent I ever had.
Just when you learn something, you learn it in the new environment, in the new language that surrounds you. At the same time, your operational memory switches from your mother tongue to the new linguistic surrounding.
For instance, in a telecommunication infrastructures translation, I needed to search terms in Lithuanian, while in Portuguese, I just know them.
Or another example: I can speak about steel sheet piling both in English and in Portuguese, but not in my mother tongue!
And exactly that confuses me when it comes to "translator's mother tongue". Or am I being just too demanding for myself? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Great topic! | Aug 30, 2010 |
How easy it is to keep up one´s native language depends on which language it is.
As my native language is officially UK English - whatever THAT is... I have my own idiolect. However, I have no great problem in keeping it alive for translating purposes. In the fields I work in, the latest slang is usually far less relevant than a good understanding of the terminology.
I moved around a lot while I was growing up, and do not know what I sound like. I read omnivorously, fr... See more How easy it is to keep up one´s native language depends on which language it is.
As my native language is officially UK English - whatever THAT is... I have my own idiolect. However, I have no great problem in keeping it alive for translating purposes. In the fields I work in, the latest slang is usually far less relevant than a good understanding of the terminology.
I moved around a lot while I was growing up, and do not know what I sound like. I read omnivorously, from George Eliot, Mrs. Gaskell and Conan Doyle to my cousin's Sci-Fi novels. Admittedly, the last are not a genre I read much of, but my cousin can actually spin a good yarn and I am eagerly awaiting the next!
So much for my mother tongue.
I regard Danish as my second native language. I arrived when I was 27, head over heels in love with my husband and everything Danish, and it is an enormous advantage.
I have since developed a more sober view of Danes and Danish society. But without the thorough knowledge gained through living here, I would not dare set up as a translator!
As others have mentioned, English is everywhere. It is far more difficult for my son and daughter-in-law to keep up Danish in the UK than it was for me to keep up English, even before the era of the Internet, Skype etc.
You can hear English ´as she is spoke´ on Danish TV for several hours every day - though the quality varies. There is everything, however, from vintage BBC English to every level of modern language, subtitled for the benefit of Danes and the likes of me who might not catch all the dialect and the latest slang. Other languages are also broadcast as spoken, with subtitles, in the news and documentary programmes, though not so often as English and American.
You never see a Danish film in the UK. ´Kingdom Hospital´ was totally remade! The same goes for many other languages, and it is a pity, because it is an extremely good way of learning the accent and vocabulary.
Danes are surrounded by other languages from birth, and I am sure it is good for children to grow up aware of the differences. ▲ Collapse
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