| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Are general translators capable of translating highly specialized medical texts Thread poster: LilianNekipelov
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| You would be surprised... | Jul 15, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
but by the way the questions are formulated you can tell if the person has any idea at all what the text is about. I am just referring to that type of situations where the person has almost no idea what the text is about and where one phrase ends and another one begins.
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[Edited at 2012-07-15 19:41 GMT]
Since someone does not have to log in to ask questions and/or she/he can use nicknames on the site, you would be very surprised if there was a survey about the higher education of those who are asking in their own (!) fields. Asking is not a problem, furthermore it shows that the person is out for doing his/her best, but what kind of questions they are asking shows that papers and titles are overestimated in this profession and we should check individuals separately no matter how many titles/degrees they have ...
I read this quote from Henry Ford somewhere:
"It is all one to me if a man comes from Sing Sing or Harvard. We hire a man, not his history." Henry Ford
Nowadays it would sound a little bit differently, but the message is still so true especially for our profession: we can find excellent specialized translators among those who have no previous education (no papers) in translation or in linguistics, but they worked in this or in that field, we can find excellent specialized translators among those who are not doctors, lawyers, engineers etc. (no papers) but they had education in linguistics/journalism etc. A brilliant CV and having trillions of titles (or having the highest degree in that field) do not worth a penny if someone cannot provide that professional translation by herself/himself, the client needs.
[Edited at 2012-07-15 20:23 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-15 20:55 GMT]
| | | | LilianNekipelov 
United States
Local time: 00:50
Russian to English
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TOPIC STARTER | You can't check individuals really -- there is no way to check | Jul 15, 2012 |
I think clients should ask for sample translation and for three reliable references, especially if highly specialized texts are involved. Sometimes even a degree does not guarantee anything.
| | | | | the "all-rounder" niche | Jul 16, 2012 |
Hello Samuel,
Maybe "all-rounder" is a better, more neutral (or more positive) term for what I suspect you and a number of other translators here do very well. There is a real market for this service among non-specialized agencies and, theoretically, also among those rare direct clients that consistently have small volumes of texts from a wide variety of fields.
Samuel Murray wrote:
However, the term is also used (with some pride) by those of us who realise that a text in any subject field can be translated by any good translator as long as that text is publish-ready in its original language and is comprehensible by a reasonably intelligent member of the public. If a specialised text can only be understood by someone in the same field, then it requires a translator who understands the field, but if it can be understood by any member of the public, then a general translator (who is also a member of the public, so to speak) can attempt it.
So if you have a highly specialised medical text, the question should be whether (a) the text itself is flawless (i.e. contains no errors) and whether (b) it is comprehensible and not ambiguous. If "yes" on both counts, I see no reason why any translator should not attempt it... if the translator has access to resources in that language combination in that field. No-one is saying that such a translation will be excellent or expertly suited -- only that it will be adequate.
Are there really texts that are flawless and/or unambiguous? I can search through a medical dictionary, but I can't estimate the relative adequacy of various near-synonyms and glosses and I would have no inkling of macro-textual issues.
It seems ironic to me that it seems to be the trained linguists here who are supporting a view of translation as substitution and denying the inherent ambiguity of language and verbal descriptions. No one is a native-speaker of online-retail T&Cs or IT press releases: Well-trained translators will be better at finding and utilizing parallel texts and other reference material, but it will still take them more time to produce a less convincing translation than someone who is intimately familiar with the topic and the types of texts.
To paraphrase my earlier statement: I would also say that there is a significant minority of all-rounders who regularly produce fully acceptable work but that the vast majority of all-rounders provide inadequate translations.
And from the client's point of view:
I recently went to an all-rounder agency to have my driver's license translated, because this translation was truly a commodity. I needed a stamp on the translation to get a stamp for my new driver's license.
However, I would never go to an all-rounder agency with my website or advertising material or an academic paper or anything else where quality was an issue. Neither being a native-speaker nor being knowledgeable in a field nor being competent as a translator is sufficient to produce a good translation. All three have to come together - and, in most language combinations, it is never all that difficult to find a translator who can offer this.
Sincerely,
Michael
| | | | | 3 references ??!! | Jul 16, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
I think clients should ask for sample translation and for three reliable references, especially if highly specialized texts are involved. Sometimes even a degree does not guarantee anything.
Hi Lilian,
I think that you don't deal a lot with clients in the Pharma Industry or with agencies specializing in medical & pharma translation.
Indeed, it must not be easy to find a more paranoid circle, or maybe in the nuclear or armament industries
In fact, when you are working for them, you are bound by terribly strict confidentiality agreements which prohibit the mere mention of the client/agency name as well as any reference to them.
So, forget about 3 references
Have a nice evening
Catherine
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 06:50
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| @Michael (and Natalie) | Jul 16, 2012 |
Michael Wetzel wrote:
Maybe "all-rounder" is a better, more neutral (or more positive) term for what I suspect you and a number of other translators here do very well.
Hmm, to me "all rounder" is a sports term, although I do see the dictionary says it means what you say it means. It would be interesting to figure out what term would make most sense to clients, or what term is used by agency clients to describe a translator who can fill any gap adequately.
Are there really texts that are flawless and/or unambiguous? I can search through a medical dictionary, but I can't estimate the relative adequacy of various near-synonyms and glosses and I would have no inkling of macro-textual issues.
That is indeed the risk, yes. I also used the phrase "publish-ready". If the text is not publish-ready, or public-digestable, then you need a true specialist to translate it.
Natalie wrote:
It looks to me... that the topic is exhausted.
How does that comment contribute to the discussion?
| | | | | Oh there are :D | Jul 17, 2012 |
Tom in London wrote: LilianBoland wrote:
Do you believe that general translators.....
I don't believe there's such a thing as a "general translator", i.e. a translator who can translate anything, or everything.
There are! Or rather they are translators who are not specialized in a specific given field. Among them, some think they can translate anything or everything and list a zillion of speciality fields in their ProZ.com profile. As a medical LSP, we rarely consider translators who claim on their CVs and profile they are specialists in medicine but also in "finance, law, automotive, oenology, tourism, business, contracts, ceramics, economics, engineering, arts, geology, architecture, metallurgy, travel" etc etc. Rarely - but sometimes they have done many big projects in that specific field and they do have the expertise we need. That's really on a case by case basis.
I met such a translator at a conference once, and in a way I understand their situation (struggling to pay the bills and accept any jobs just to have work. They'd love to specialise but they have no time because they need to work to pay the bills. Devil's circle) but on the other, just because you once translated a marketing presentation for some medical product does not make you a medical translator.
Years ago I translated some marketing supports for beauty creams. That was the only cosmetics assignement I ever had and certainly did not make me an expert in cosmetics, less alone claiming that I was specialized in cosmetics - I still have no idea from cosmetics as a specialty/scientific matter.
Not simple to make our clients understand that not any translator can do what they need, and translators' academic education is partially responsible for that (at least in my experience in my home country).
Cheers,
Anne
[Edited at 2012-07-17 11:08 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-17 12:41 GMT]
| | | | | Ultimately... | Jul 17, 2012 |
Ultimately, it's the agency's responsibility to ensure that the translator is qualified for the job.
And it's the translator's responsibility to accept or decline the job based on his/her appreciation of his/her own competencies. Nothing wrong with saying "sorry guys, I can't do this" - on the contrary, it shows the translator is serious and professional and if that agency is smart enough, they'll keep in touch...
My two pennies ... See more Ultimately, it's the agency's responsibility to ensure that the translator is qualified for the job.
And it's the translator's responsibility to accept or decline the job based on his/her appreciation of his/her own competencies. Nothing wrong with saying "sorry guys, I can't do this" - on the contrary, it shows the translator is serious and professional and if that agency is smart enough, they'll keep in touch...
My two pennies ▲ Collapse
| | | | | On the other hand ... | Jul 17, 2012 |
Anne Diamantidis wrote: Tom in London wrote: LilianBoland wrote:
Do you believe that general translators.....
I don't believe there's such a thing as a "general translator", i.e. a translator who can translate anything, or everything. There are! Or rather they are translators who are not specialized in anything Or rather they think they can translate anything or everything and list a zillion of speciality fields in their ProZ.com profile. As a medical LSP, we rarely consider translators who claim on their CVs and profile they are specialists in medicine but also in "finance, law, automotive, oenology, tourism, business, contracts, ceramics, economics, engineering, arts, geology, architecture, metallurgy, travel" etc etc. Rarely - but sometimes they have done many big projects in that specific field and they do have the expertise we need. That's really on a case by case basis. I met such a translator at a conference once, and in a way I understand their situation (struggling to pay the bills and accept any jobs just to have work. They'd love to specialise but they have no time because they need to work to pay the bills. Devil's circle) but on the other, just because you once translated a marketing presentation for some medical product does not make you a medical translator. Years ago I translated some marketing supports for beauty creams. That was the only cosmetics assignement I ever had and certainly did not make me an expert in cosmetics, less alone claiming that I was specialized in cosmetics - I still have no idea from cosmetics as a specialty/scientific matter. Not simple to make our clients understand that not any translator can do what they need, and translators' academic education is partially responsible for that (at least in my experience in my home country). Cheers, Anne [Edited at 2012-07-17 11:08 GMT]
I think very different fields can be successfully combined. It depends on the person, his/her skills and capabilities. Also when here on Proz somebody selects e.g. "Technical" it can mean so many different subfields within the category of "Technical". Plus why someone specialized in Medical translation should not add that he/she is specialized in Travel as well? There are even professions that deal with the 2 as a combination: Medical tourism or you can think about medical convention organizers.
Do you know how many times medical translators who are not specialized in Law are receiving Clinical Trial Contracts? Then you have to find a person, who is specialized both in Law and in Medical fields. As I wrote in my profile: nowadays fields are so cross-linked and combined, nobody should be astonished of giving more very different fields.
There is only one rule in this case: You should not just select these fields and "feel" that you are specialized in these fields, but you must have a very true, strict and correct self-critique and if that is backed by the confirmation of colleagues and true professionals in those fields then you are on the right path.
Again I think that making stereotypes do not lead to correct results in this profession. Translators must be reviewed separately...
I know a few translators who are excellent translators in 4-5 very different fields and most of the times they are much better translators than those who have the highest degrees in those fields .. and even professionals in those fields agree with that.
And I'm not talking about stylistic differences, but specialized terminology, understanding and translating complex sentences in these specialized fields.
At least in EN-HU pair.
[Edited at 2012-07-17 11:36 GMT]
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| case by case | Jul 17, 2012 |
Katalin Szilárd wrote:
I think very different fields can be successfully combined. It depends on the person, his/her skills and capabilities. Also when here on Proz somebody selects e.g. "Technical" it can mean so many different subfields within the category of "Technical". Plus why someone specialized in Medical translation should not add that he/she is specialized in Travel as well? There are even professions that deal with the 2 as a combination: Medical tourism or you can think about medical convention organizers.
Do you know how many times medical translators who are not specialized in Law are receiving Clinical Trial Contracts? Then you have to find a person, who is specialized both in Law and in Medical fields. As I wrote in my profile: nowadays fields are so cross-linked and combined, nobody should be astonished of giving more very different fields.
There is only one rule in this case: You should not just select these fields and "feel" that you are specialized in these fields, but you must have a very true, strict and correct self-critique and if that is backed by the confirmation of colleagues and true professionals in those fields then you are on the right path.
Again I think that making stereotypes do not lead to correct results in this profession. Translators must be reviewed separately...
I know a few translators who are excellent translators in 4-5 very different fields and most of the times they are much better translators than those who have the highest degrees in those fields .. and even professionals in those fields agree with that.
And I'm not talking about stylistic differences, but specialized terminology, understanding and translating complex sentences in these specialized fields.
At least in EN-HU pair.
[Edited at 2012-07-17 11:36 GMT]
Agreed, which is why I wrote that we do it on a case by case basis when it comes to selecting translators for a given project
| | | | SJLD
Local time: 06:50
French to English
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| Are general translators capable of translating highly specialized medical texts? | Jul 23, 2012 |
To answer the question, highly specialized medical texts, no. You don't need to be medically qualified to do medical translation, although specific training/further education in the field and advanced terminology research skills are advisable.
Every day I see Kudoz questions - and answers - that are glaring examples of incompetence in the medical field. Unfortunately these people usually don't recognise their own inadequacies.
| | | | SJLD
Local time: 06:50
French to English
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LilianBoland wrote:
A very important question still remains: who should do very complex, medical, technical or even legal translations. What should the reasonable rates be for such translations where the translator would have to learn almost the same as a doctor, or a lawyer, in two languages?
Who? Ideally a professional translator (by professional I mean one who follows the professional code of translating only into his or her native language) with adequate knowledge of the subject matter and resources and skills for researching unfamiliar terminology. In western Europe (at least in France and Germany), experienced medical translators can ask upwards of 0.15 euros per source word. €0.20-0.25 is not unheard of.
As for translating articles destined for publication in scientific journals, if you think stylistic or grammatical errors are unimportant, think again. Quickest way of getting your paper rejected! I have reviewed papers for a major journal and I can assure you that the writing quality is regarded as important as the scientific value of the content when judging whether a paper is acceptable for publication.
[Edited at 2012-07-24 06:09 GMT]
| | | | | Medical journals | Jul 24, 2012 |
SJLD wrote: LilianBoland wrote:
A very important question still remains: who should do very complex, medical, technical or even legal translations. What should the reasonable rates be for such translations where the translator would have to learn almost the same as a doctor, or a lawyer, in two languages?
Who? Ideally a professional translator (by professional I mean one who follows the professional code of translating only into his or her native language) with adequate knowledge of the subject matter and resources and skills for researching unfamiliar terminology. In western Europe (at least in France and Germany), experienced medical translators can ask upwards of 0.15 euros per source word. €0.20-0.25 is not unheard of. As for translating articles destined for publication in scientific journals, if you think stylistic or grammatical errors are unimportant, think again. Quickest way of getting your paper rejected! I have reviewed papers for a major journal and I can assure you that the writing quality is regarded as important as the scientific value of the content when judging whether a paper is acceptable for publication. [Edited at 2012-07-24 06:09 GMT]
That's why it is so shameful to see (it will be more painful for the client when he/she receives the "certified" translation) when European agencies with rates of approx. 0.04-0.045 Euro/word to direct clients!! are looking for specialist medical translators to translate articles from medical journals... Just imagine how much they pay for their translators and imagine the "translators" who accept these rates!! There is always one step lower in "quality" ...
[Edited at 2012-07-24 11:49 GMT]
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neilmac
Spain
Local time: 06:50
Spanish to English
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| Could it be anything else? | Oct 11, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote: neilmac wrote:
I have to assume someone is either flogging a still-kicking hobby horse or playing devil's advocate. Just a case of trolling.
In general, I agree with Robert when he says that "if you are sufficiently comfortable with the subject matter as to accurately translate the text using a combination of acquired knowledge and sources at your disposal, and with no more than a minimum of direct external help (e.g., posting term help queries and asking colleagues for assistance), then you are qualified to do the translation (assuming that you also have the basic qualifications in terms of knowledge of the source and target languages.
However, today there is someone posting a query in my pair on proz, which shows they are:
1) translating into English, when their native tongue is obviously Spanish:
2) lacking sufficient medical knowledge and translation experience.
I'd really like to be able to tell them what my opinion is about it, but the rules fodrbid it - one reason I am seriously considering giving up my membership which expires next month.
| | | | | Study on medical translators | Oct 12, 2012 |
Some colleagues from Russia recently conducted a serious survey on medical translation by translators with a medical background vs. translators with a translation background.
Their article with the survey methodology and results is available here
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 06:50
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| My interpretation of the data | Oct 12, 2012 |
Anne Diamantidis wrote: Their article with the survey methodology and results is available here
In the data section, they classify medical translators into three groups, namely those who studied both medicine and linguistics, those who studied only medicine, and those who studied only linguistics.
The authors of this study have their own interpretation of the data, which seems to suggest that they don't find it odd that translators make many linguistic errors, but if we interpret their data based on the assumption that a translator who makes many linguistic errors is a bad, bad translator, then my interpretation of the data is this:
* If we compare only translators who made few linguistic errors (i.e. "good" translators), then having studied mecidine makes very little difference to the number of medical errors. In fact, good translators who studied only linguistics don't make many medical errors.
* Translators who studied only medicine tend not to make many linguistic erros, even if they make many medical errors.
* With regard to mediocre and bad translators, in general, for translators who studied linguistics, the more linguistic errors they make, the more medical errors they make, regardless of whether they studied medicine also.
[Edited at 2012-10-12 10:35 GMT]
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