| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Irish pub in trouble with Quebec language cops for vintage English-only signs Thread poster: Nicholas Ferreira
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| Inflammatory language. | Mar 22, 2008 |
Christiane Lalonde wrote:
personne ne me fera pleurer sur ces pauvres anglophones soi-disant persécutés, obligés de vendre leur entreprise pour faire fortune ailleurs...
Haha, I don't expect you to cry for me - I like it here in BC. The tulips are already pushing through the ground, the scenery is beautiful and the air is clean. Within 18 months of moving, I was making more money here than I did in Quebec.
The story of the pub triggered feelings that I had not experienced for 15 years. Even today, I am still upset by it. Did I use language that you considered inflammatory? I will try to be more diplomatic. The note that you are reading has been re-written. The moderator declined to publish my original reply.
I am glad that you appreciate precision in language. It gives us some common ground on which to build.
Let’s start with that oft quoted justification for the repressive measures of Bill 101, the “promotion and protection of the French language”. That sounds noble enough, does it not? Let us examine it a little more closely.
When the Office de la Langue Francaise finds a citizen guilty of an offence, say, for using an apostrophe with a proper noun, and punishes him appropriately with a fine of $1,500, is it the English language who pays the fine? No, rather it is the speaker of the English language who writes the check. And when a speaker of French is hired for a job on the basis of his fluency, is it the French language which brings home the pay? No, it is the speaker of French who puts the money in his pocket. So, to be perfectly accurate, Bill 101 and the other similar measures, are actually laws for the promotion and protection of the speakers of the French language and conversely, the punishment of those who are not.
As we have seen, the issue was not simply about preserving the French culture in Quebec. It was about the government coming into neighbourhoods which were 98% English speaking, and renaming the streets after French speaking personalities[1][1b] It was about removing perfectly good bilingual stop signs and replacing them with French-only stop signs.[2] It was about completely banning the use of English on commercial signs as if it were some sort of pornography. It was about creating a lexicon of linguistic classification (anglophone vs francophone vs allophone) which, in Quebec, has acquired a sociopolitical and socioeconomic connotation because now it refers not merely to a person’s native language but that person’s status in Quebec society, where one class of citizen benefits from the protection of the law and the other is victimized.
I watched this transformation for two decades, watched the Anglo community quietly contract under the pressure of psychological coercion, watched the head offices, one by one gradually relocate to Toronto... This wasn't just Quebecois cultural self preservation, this was state terrorism.
And what happened when some neighbourhood Anglo business publicly challenged the law that made it illegal to post a sign in English and French, a law that was ultimately struck down as unconstitutional, an infringement of human rights?[3][4] Well, then thugs with bricks attacked the businesses, including McKenna Flower Shop in an ugly attempt to intimidate the owners in a way that the polite boys at the OLF could not duplicate.[5]
The threat of violence against those who spoke English was by no means unprecedented. The FLQ’s first kidnap victim was the British Trade Commissioner James Cross, presumably selected because he was British, one of the conquerors.[1c]. Although, as it turned out, all the people who died at the hands of the FLQ were fellow Quebecois, it was clear to everyone that federalism was the target and that the anglophone community was staunchly federalist.
I recall well a pre-election ad campaign by the Union Nationale that was run in the English language press. At that time, there was a three way race between the Parti Quebecois, the Liberals, who were the federalist anglophones’ only real choice and the Union Nationale, a conservative nationalist party. The ad showed rioting independentists, the fleur-de-lis waving heroically in their midst, with the caption “A vote for the Liberals is a provocation.” Can you imagine that?
When the sign law banning English was finally struck down, it was immediately replaced by a new law, which permitted English, provided it occupied a subordinate position to French and the nature of that subordination was clearly defined. [6]
Prof. Don Donderi wrote:
“ Restricting English gives nationalists the satisfaction, eloquently described by the late Camil Laurin, of putting English Quebecers on a "reducing diet" -- reducing their influence, and humbling them in the process, before, as some of them would like to do, driving them out of a French-speaking, independent Quebec."
Christiane, I invite the readers of this thread to check the definition of the term “persecution” and to decide for themselves if the word is appropriate in this context.
By the way, after that business with the circumflex, the OLF paid an unannounced visit to my clinic. They inspected the signs and the stationary and interviewed the staff. They spoke to my wonderful Swiss educated office manager, married, incidentally, to a francophone, and to my receptionists, all of whom were “pur laine”. My wife also happened to be there although I was at my other office. She is a brilliant trilingual allophone who, when the occasion demanded, could turn on the Joual thick. The OLF never bothered us again.
Ironically, my wife was approached that same year by her boss and was asked to meet Rene Levesque and join the Parti Quebecois, possibly as a candidate in an ethnic riding. She had no interest. Her boss ultimately became a PQ cabinet minister.
Clearly, while ostensibly designed to protect the French language, the policies in Quebec reveal a pervasive underlying racism. In the archives of the “Journal de Montreal” there is a political cartoon that I read shortly before I left Quebec. It shows a crowd of stereotyped immigrants celebrating Canada Day. The mélange of buck-toothed Chinese, thick-lipped Jamaicans and long-nosed Hassidic Jews, all waving maple-leaf flags is observed from Balconville by Joe Average Quebecois, Cinquante in hand. Quebec City now has veto power over immigration to the province.
Referring back to our discussion about the necessity for a bureau such as the Office de la Langue Francaise, Christiane and ZettieZ relate anecdotes describing the arrogance of the English. In the context of this thread, what is their point? Apparently the point is that the entire Anglo minority is arrogant and dismissive and must be collectively controlled and punished by banning their language, and when that doesn’t work because of the pesky human rights issue, they must at least be made subordinate.
Moreover, Christiane declares that she “will not be made to cry for these poor anglophones”. Note her use of the pleural. Her disdain extends not merely to myself, who may have offended her by referring to her beloved language police as “Nazis” but to the entire “so called persecuted” Anglo community who has elected to move away. We have an expression in English for the wholesale expulsion of an ethnic group from a territory by means of various forms of coercion, but the moderator would not permit me to use it.
You know, I am usually very apolitical. This topic just struck a nerve.
Michael
Footnotes:
(1) In a similar way, English street names were changed to French in Quebec during the 1970s, after French was declared the sole language for outdoor signage. This was met with hurt and anger by many of the province's Anglophones, who wished to retain their traditional placenames. The government body responsible for overseeing the enacting of the Charter of the French Language continues to press English-majority communities to further francize their street names (for example, what was once "Lakeshore Road" was changed to "Chemin Lakeshore" in the 1970s, with the Office québécois de la langue française pressuring a further change to "Chemin du Bord-du-Lac".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_name
(1b) In many cases, the English street names were replaced by names which had no meaning for the primarily English residents, or worse still, were antagonistic. The city of Westmount resisted the renaming of Dorchester after Rene Levesque in the section that passed through its jurisdiction. When asked by a reporter when the city would rename the street “Rene Levesque”, mayor May Cutler replied “What’s the rush? He’s going to be dead for a very long time.”
http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/features/park/story.html?id=3e6294cc-444e-4d91-964b-fc5309718b0e&k=0
(1c) http://archives.cbc.ca/clip.asp?page=1&IDClip=596&IDCat=395&IDCatPa=264&IDDossier=
(2)Published: May 14, 1982, New York Times
The English order ''Stop'' will be removed from stop signs at road junctions in Quebec, leaving only the French word ''Arret,'' the Government has decided.
The octagonal red ''Arret-Stop'' signs are at present in both Canadian official languages. But the English word must be removed by the end of 1987, the provincial Transport Minister, Michel Clair, announced, arguing that although ''Stop'' was also used colloquially in French, there was no need for two words for the same order.
The change is part of the policy of Premier Rene Levesque's Government to use French, the mother tongue of 80 percent of Quebecers, as the province's only official language.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9402E5DA1538F937A25756C0A964948260
(3) Quebec’s French Only Sign Law Voided (16 Dec 1988 New York Times)
By JOHN F. BURNS, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: December 16, 1988
LEAD: The Canadian Supreme Court today struck down a key provision in an 11-year-old Quebec law prohibiting the posting of signs in any language but French.
The Canadian Supreme Court today struck down a key provision in an 11-year-old Quebec law prohibiting the posting of signs in any language but French.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE4DF163BF935A25751C1A96E948260
(4) Citation:Ford v. Quebec (Attorney General), [1988] 2 S.C.R. 712
http://csc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/1988/1988rcs2-712/1988rcs2-712.html
(5) 20 Jan. 1987
Bill 101: Language and Media Sensationalism
The December 22 Quebec Court of Appeal ruling that the "French-only provision of Bill 101 ran counter to the Quebec Bill of Rights seems to have sparked a marked reaction among some members of the Montreal populace; resulting in pro-FLQ graffiti and violence. Recall the bomb threats at Ogilvy's, Simpson's and Birks' downtown stores, the broken windows at McKenna Cote-des-Neiges Flower shop and the firebombing at the St Laurent Zellers store. The Bourassa government has 90 days from the date of the decision to appeal the ruling to the Supreme Court of Canada.
Parti Quebequois leader Pierre-Marc Johnson began to make noise about the number of English signs there were in downtown Montreal and in the predominantly English west end of the city. In fact, the perpetrators were made up of a few relatively stubborn and shortsighted individuals some of whom could not even spell the English words on their signs properly.
- Michèle Dupuis
http://media.www.mcgilltribune.com/media/storage/paper234/news/2006/04/04/SilverEditionSpecialFeature/Trib-Hits.Quarter.Century.Mark-1782068.shtml
(6) 1 June 1997 New York Times.
Unlike my literary peers in the United States and the Rest of Canada - or the R.O.C., as it is now known here in Quebec - I can no longer scribble in English with impunity, which makes for a certain frisson. The Commission de Protection de la Langue Franaise has dispersed 15 inspectors, each of them armed with a tape measure and color chart, to make sure that English lettering on outdoor commercial signs is half the size of the French, and that perfidious Anglophones haven't painted their half-pint messages in colors more alluring than the French...
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B07EED61530F932A35755C0A961958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
| | | | | This is really headed in the wrong direction | Mar 23, 2008 |
Dear Michael,
I cannot conceive how an intelligent person would be willing to invest so much time and effort (congrats on the footnotes) to write such a heinous post. What is beyond my comprehension is how someone can complain about persecution in the very post that person uses to do precisely that. I am sorry, Michael, I am missing your point.
In any case, you sound like you are happy where you are now - I know more than one Quebecer who still doesn't feel at home in t... See more Dear Michael,
I cannot conceive how an intelligent person would be willing to invest so much time and effort (congrats on the footnotes) to write such a heinous post. What is beyond my comprehension is how someone can complain about persecution in the very post that person uses to do precisely that. I am sorry, Michael, I am missing your point.
In any case, you sound like you are happy where you are now - I know more than one Quebecer who still doesn't feel at home in their own province. That doesn't seem to be your case... My initial contribution to this thread was an invitation to stop bashing each other - it seems it was all deliberately ignored, at least by some.
Michael Barnett wrote:
Within 18 months of moving, I was making more money here than I did in Quebec.
Michael Barnett wrote:
So, to be perfectly accurate, Bill 101 and the other similar measures, are actually laws for the promotion and protection of the speakers of the French language and conversely, the punishment of those who are not.
Michael Barnett wrote:
As we have seen, the issue was not simply about preserving the French culture in Quebec. It was about the government coming into neighbourhoods which were 98% English speaking, and renaming the streets after French speaking personalities.
Michael Barnett wrote:
Quebec society, where one class of citizen benefits from the protection of the law and the other is victimized.
Michael Barnett wrote:
This wasn't just Quebecois cultural self preservation, this was state terrorism.
Michael Barnett wrote:
the policies in Quebec reveal a pervasive underlying racism
Michael Barnett wrote:
Her disdain extends not merely to myself, who may have offended her by referring to her beloved language police as “Nazis” but to the entire “so called persecuted” Anglo community who has elected to move away. We have an expression in English for the wholesale expulsion of an ethnic group from a territory by means of various forms of coercion, but the moderator would not permit me to use it.
Good thing we now have a Canadian forum - I guess now the whole wide world knows where NOT to go on vacation. Hint: it also includes provinces other than Quebec.
I would be extremely ashamed of myself if I had publicly posted any such arrogant, accusatory and [the moderator would not let me use the word] remarks...
Um, moderator please? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I suggest we end this thread and continue on another footing | Mar 23, 2008 |
Despite appearances, I haven't been absent. Michael's latest posting is actually the third rewrite over a one-month period, at my insistence. I finally let this posting through because, somehow, I think he deserves his "say", but I'm not at all comfortable with it, and I had the feeling when I did it that I might regret it. The most inflammatory of his phrasing is gone, but the tone of rage and - I have to say it - hate - remains.
Obviously, it has to end here. There are few places... See more Despite appearances, I haven't been absent. Michael's latest posting is actually the third rewrite over a one-month period, at my insistence. I finally let this posting through because, somehow, I think he deserves his "say", but I'm not at all comfortable with it, and I had the feeling when I did it that I might regret it. The most inflammatory of his phrasing is gone, but the tone of rage and - I have to say it - hate - remains.
Obviously, it has to end here. There are few places where it's useful to express hate - even directed at institutions - and this forum is certainly not one of them.
I'm sure that Nicolas suggested this topic innocently in the first place, and I admire many of you for rising above the issue of OLF silliness and striking out into the much more interesting and fulfilling terrain of how people of different languages, cultures and experiences can all live and prosper together, especially in terms of day-to-day language use. I suggest we continue this discussion, but on another thread.
I want to make a personal statement: I am not a Quebecker and have never lived there, but for me, Montreal is the most interesting, culturally richest city in this country precisely because of the French/English interface and multicultural mix. It's the only city in Canada where I've been able to walk for half an hour along any random main street and find myself engaged in conversation in French, English and even Spanish. I think Montreal has a good thing going!
I apologize to those of you who think I let this thread go too far. That said, I don't want to lock this down and give myself the last word. Feel free to post a reply if it's constructive. Meanwhile, let's move on to something better.
Thanks ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Reconciliation | Mar 23, 2008 |
Damon Loomer wrote:
I apologize to those of you who think I let this thread go too far. That said, I don't want to lock this down and give myself the last word. Feel free to post a reply if it's constructive. Meanwhile, let's move on to something better.
Thanks
Hi Damon,
Please don't take this as an attempt to "get the last word". I welcome the end to this thread. The whole exercise has been time consuming and emotionally draining for me.
I agree with you that the multiculturalism of the city is wonderful. My son is now studying at McGill. I encouraged him to go to Montreal and to try to soak up what the city offers.
My letters criticized institutions and attitudes which I believe will ultimately destroy that multiculturalism.
Certainly, no one can be harmed by at least observing an issue from a different perspective.
Regards,
Michael
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Michael,
I was very sad to read your post.
I have absolutely no hatred, and your supposition I do is so far-fetched that it made me realise your entire post has more to do with an unresolved emotive conflict than with reality.
I have lived and worked in an English-speaking environment a good part of my life, and I speak English at home. If there's one thing I hate, it's nationalism.
I have also lived in a country where state terrorism, persecution and race-related murders... See more Michael,
I was very sad to read your post.
I have absolutely no hatred, and your supposition I do is so far-fetched that it made me realise your entire post has more to do with an unresolved emotive conflict than with reality.
I have lived and worked in an English-speaking environment a good part of my life, and I speak English at home. If there's one thing I hate, it's nationalism.
I have also lived in a country where state terrorism, persecution and race-related murders are common. This is obviously not your case, or you would'nt dare write such nonsense.
You should be careful with your choice of words, really. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I learned a lot | Mar 30, 2008 |
Greetings fellow forumers and Canadians all,
It was not my intent in starting this topic to create a polemical situation, but merely to learn the views of my fellow Canadians on the opportunities and pitfalls of our current situation in the multi-lingual and multi-cultural country we live in, as well as particular incidents that have arisen concerning the issue of being a country with two official languages.
I must say I have learned a lot and have grown in appreciation... See more Greetings fellow forumers and Canadians all,
It was not my intent in starting this topic to create a polemical situation, but merely to learn the views of my fellow Canadians on the opportunities and pitfalls of our current situation in the multi-lingual and multi-cultural country we live in, as well as particular incidents that have arisen concerning the issue of being a country with two official languages.
I must say I have learned a lot and have grown in appreciation of what a privilege it is to have a country so rich in cultural and linguistic heritage. I hope differences can be worked out reasonably and peaceably, as should be expected of citizens of a respectable nation that Canada is, was and will be.
Thank you. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Food for thought, bilingualism in the rest of the country....... | May 6, 2008 |
I was born in Québec City and moved to Toronto 35 years ago, my son went to a totally French school in T.O.
After years of middle management positions in either English only or bilingual, I am now a translator but mostly a phone interpreter and a French tutor.
My husband a history professor at Ryerson University is too old for tenure. He supplements his income by teaching ESL.
Obviously it is to my advantage that all English speaking provinces teaches French for about 5 or 6 y... See more I was born in Québec City and moved to Toronto 35 years ago, my son went to a totally French school in T.O.
After years of middle management positions in either English only or bilingual, I am now a translator but mostly a phone interpreter and a French tutor.
My husband a history professor at Ryerson University is too old for tenure. He supplements his income by teaching ESL.
Obviously it is to my advantage that all English speaking provinces teaches French for about 5 or 6 years, it is a requirement to graduate, however I do empathize with the immigrant's children having to learn English just to attend school and then having to learn French from grade 4 on, it is difficult not living in an environment where the language is reinforced with daily exposure, as is the case with English.
Here is a little interpreter anecdote:
A transit commission (which is a crown corporation) uses our services from time to time.
This lady speaks perfect French and the operator perfect English, so no problem there.
But the call was a bit difficult to clearly relay as the caller wants to know how to get from A to B on public transit and back on a week-end reduced schedule, she also wanted to know alternative times, opening time, closing time and fares. This involved a bus, a go train, a subway, a go train and a bus in each direction and fares with 2 different services.
So the call was fairly long, after all was conveyed, she asked to speak to a supervisor ( I did) and then out of the blue in perfect English she complains about the service taking too much time, (she did say that we did a good job) she said that she had the right to demand to be served in the language of her choice, which of course she has, the supervisor explained that they had just lost 2 French speaking employees and that when that happened they use the services of interpreters, that didn’t satisfy her, she then said that, that may be acceptable for a tourist but that she is on a busy schedule and has the right to efficient service and she asked to speak to someone higher…………at which point I excused myself and disconnected.
My question is, why would she want to suffer through the process when she didn’t have to……….. and was in a hurry………… ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Same old, same old: 30 years ago at Eaton's, last year on Park Av. | Jun 9, 2008 |
Hi,
I just found this Forum.
Case in point: I'm French Canadian, actually born in Montreal.
I've been fully bilingual since age 16.
But I do remember clearly one day about 30 years ago at downtown Eaton's, where I could get ANY employee to answer my questions in French. And when I insisted (pretending not to understand English) all I got was... nothing. The employee just walked away.
Then there's been Bill 22 and finally Bill 101.
W... See more Hi,
I just found this Forum.
Case in point: I'm French Canadian, actually born in Montreal.
I've been fully bilingual since age 16.
But I do remember clearly one day about 30 years ago at downtown Eaton's, where I could get ANY employee to answer my questions in French. And when I insisted (pretending not to understand English) all I got was... nothing. The employee just walked away.
Then there's been Bill 22 and finally Bill 101.
Well, guess what?
Last year, on Park Avenue near St. Viateur, I walked in a photo supplies store and I asked, in French, whether they had 400 ASA film. To my utmost bewilderment, the person (who was either the young owner of the place or the owner's son) pretended not to understand and didn't even make an effort (I mean, 400 ASA isn't all that hard to figure out, right?). I insisted (still in French, of course) but to no avail.
So I walked out and graciously, with my biggest smile, informed him (this time in English) that he had just lost a $300 sale (which was true because I was looking to buy lots of film for a trip the next week).
I fail to see where else in the world someone in their right mind would open shop and not speak the language of the majority...
So yes, sometimes the OLF is over zealous, but overall, when I look at Montreal's storefronts today, I must say they are rather laxist. ▲ Collapse
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| OLF: Vagueness and inconsistency | Sep 11, 2008 |
My only beef with the OLF is that they are extremely vague about some of their requirements, which I find that they apply in an inconsistent way.
I am a translator for the city of Montreal and two years ago, they threatened to sue us for translating street names and even using the term "City of Montreal." Now, as ridiculous as this makes some of our English texts sound, that is not the problem I have with them. The problem is that they have no written material available on their site about... See more My only beef with the OLF is that they are extremely vague about some of their requirements, which I find that they apply in an inconsistent way.
I am a translator for the city of Montreal and two years ago, they threatened to sue us for translating street names and even using the term "City of Montreal." Now, as ridiculous as this makes some of our English texts sound, that is not the problem I have with them. The problem is that they have no written material available on their site about this issue and there is no one you can call to ask. Thus, the "rules" are always subject to change.
After they insisted that we (and that means me) change every address on our 200-site portal and we removed the offending "streets," "avenues," "City of Montreal," they came back with another threat to sue because we had removed the French street types from the English addresses. This is, by the way, common practice in both languages in Montreal; most people will say "on Hutchison" or "à l'angle de Saint-Laurent et Saint-Viateur" rather than always mentioning the street type.
Interestingly, they did not mention this discrepancy for the French addresses without a street type on the portal.
Once again, we (I) made the rounds of the 200 Web sites. Then, I noticed that on Quebec City's Web site, they are allowed to refer to themselves as Quebec City in three foreign languages: English, Spanish and Portuguese. I think that was when I started to really feel pissed off. I didn't tell anyone at work about it, though, because I worried that someone might turn in Quebec City.
Anyway, we were all pretty drained and resentful about it, and this is far from a situation involving Anglo media or "Anglo rights" activists. All of my colleagues are French speakers and I'm an American permanent resident who is very sympathetic to the protection of French in Quebec, particularly in light of how French was practically eliminated in my home country.
However, in this case, it looked like the idea was to make an example of us or make money off us, or both.
Frankly, I wish the OLF would stick to what they do well, like the Grand dictionnaire and the francisation programs where they help businesses rather than threatening them. It's a shame that they're mainly known for their relentless "enculage de mouches."
I don't see how they can claim that they didn't know those pub signs were decorative. I also notice that neither Italian nor Chinese signage seems to be subject to the same set of rules as English signage, which is yet another reason why I wish they had something clear in writing on these matters that was applied in a consistent fashion. I don't think it's fair that "other languages besides French" often seems to mean "English." ▲ Collapse
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