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| | | true reporting of a real concept that is native language | Aug 6, 2013 |
S. Elizabeth wrote:
I suppose a more appropriate question might be just that, what language were you trained to read and write in, as opposed to what is your native language.
Judging from what some of the posters to this and other threads on the subject seem to have in common, the "native language requirement" becomes a problem when a person's technically native language is not the language they learned to write (and presumably read) in at a mature, polished level. In other words, their native language is not the language of their training as writers (and presumably readers, as the two go hand in hand).
I would think that at root there is no one-size-fits-all solution, and that in the end, the onus is on translators wanting to work in markets that lack familiarity with the realities of their culture's educational system and training methods, and they should be prepared to market and present themselves accordingly.
It is difficult to imagine that a site like proz.com, which offers a database featuring ALL language pairs, could ever be structured to handle all of the professional "realities" out there, any more than agencies that purport to offer services in all language pairs and all specializations could feasibly operate in such a way.
Yes, quite true.
However, a problem does arise if registered members claim as native language (or as one of their native languages) a language that has never been their native language, no matter how good or bad they believe they speak it or write in it. It's a slap in the face of those who truthfully reported the same language as their second (non-native) language, not their native language. Because by claiming a language as your native language, you as a translator here indicate that you indeed grew up with that language and, compared with other non-native translators, will be better in it.
It's less likely that translators who claim as native language a language that is indeed their native language will fail in all other areas, such as reading and writing skills, experience as a translator, fields of expertise, education in that language, etc.
It is fairly certain that a "translator" who is a native speaker of A and excels in other aspects will indeed have an advantage over a non-native when it comes to translating into A, especially in certain subject fields. That's why true reporting of one's native languages is important, for all our reputations and the reputation of the site.
In other words, if you are a non-native speaker, you should not say you are a native speaker.
And to make the concept of native speaker or language out to be some vague idea (not you, S. E.) that cannot be defined and thus shouldn't have any impact on choosing a translator, doesn't sit well with people like me who are quite aware of what it means to be a native speaker.
There is nothing wrong with writing in a non-native language at a mature and polished level. Just don't claim to be a native speaker in it. There is most often a very big difference!
B
[Edited at 2013-08-06 16:54 GMT]
| | | | | Wy don't you report English as your second native language, Bernhard, | Aug 6, 2013 |
instead of accusing people of many things that are not true in most cases at least. You cannot cling just to your own stereotypical definition of a native language as L1, because it is simply not the right definition of the phenomenon, even though some dictionaries may define it this way because they don't have enough space to write dissertations about it. From what I remember, you have all of your higher education in English only, use mostly English at work, at the university, and have been liv... See more instead of accusing people of many things that are not true in most cases at least. You cannot cling just to your own stereotypical definition of a native language as L1, because it is simply not the right definition of the phenomenon, even though some dictionaries may define it this way because they don't have enough space to write dissertations about it. From what I remember, you have all of your higher education in English only, use mostly English at work, at the university, and have been living in the United States like for 15 or 17 years. I think you may definitely qualify as a native speaker based on usage, and competence. I still cannot really understand your agenda.Do you believe that the people who report other German and English as their native languages get more jobs?
In reference to some language pairs like Polish-English and Russian-English, not to mention Lithuanian-English, the discussion is even more pointless, because there are almost no translators who translate highly specialized texts from those languages into English who were born in English-speaking countries. Most are people born in those countries and educated in English speaking countries. There is really no competition problem here. I just like this subject out of deep interest in it, and perhaps out of principle. I don't really like mechanical approaches to things, and anything that might verge on discrimination. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:00
Hebrew to English
| Here we go..... | Aug 6, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Wy[sic] don't you report English as your second native language, Bernhard,
I think he's made it clear that English is not his native language, he was born and raised in a German speaking country, his primary, secondary and first round of tertiary education were all in a German speaking country. Yes, he has spent a long time in the US, but that doesn't change your native language in most cases. Funnily enough, I happened to catch 10 minutes of a cooking programme with Rick Stein (famous Chef) he was talking about some German relative of his who abandoned her native German when she lived in England because of anti-German sentiment after WW2 and pretty much switched entirely to English, however many decades later 2 days before she died she started speaking German again. Cute story and the moral of it is that even decades of living in a foreign culture, immersed in a foreign language doesn't necessarily have the power to "supplant" one's native language.
your own stereotypical definition of a native language as L1
What you call "stereotypical", I call "mainstream".
because it is simply not the right definition of the phenomenon
According to you.
From what I remember, you have all of your higher education in English only, use mostly English at work, at the university, and have been living in the United States like for 15 or 17 years.
This inability that afflicts you to do even basic research is not very reassuring. A cursory glance at his website shows that his first round of higher education was in Austria, and he has lived in the US for 25+ years.
Do you believe that the people who report other German and English as their native languages get more jobs?
Hint: not everybody cares about "the jobs". Most of the participants of this thread I'd wager don't even use ProZ for the job boards.
In reference to some language pairs like Polish-English and Russian-English, not to mention Lithuanian-English, the discussion is even more pointless, because there are almost no translators who translate highly specialized texts from those languages into English who were born in English-speaking countries.
Polish-English and Lithuanian-English yes, I can believe that...and this is one of the many exceptions we have talked about ad nauseum, Russian-English however has no shortage of native-English translators (and therefore undoubtedly some rather talented ones who specialize).
| | | | | At last, converging | Aug 6, 2013 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
There is nothing wrong with writing in a non-native language at a mature and polished level. Just don't claim to be a native speaker in it. There is most often a very big difference!
Bernhard, I tended to disagree with most of your views, because my perception of them was that someone is either a native speaker or not, and that determines unquestionably and unequivocally the quality of the translation such person can or cannot deliver.
Now you have separated the fact from the claim.
Being a native speaker fails to guarantee that a person will write in that language in a mature and polished way. I've seen the work of some Brazilian countryfellows of mine in our native Portuguese that is not at all mature and polished. FYI I am now translating one of these works into my technically non-native English, and it's far from being the first one.
The entire problem stems from people (I mean translation clients) who blindly believe not only that native-speakerness ensures high quality, but also that each and every non-native speaker will unavoidably deliver immature, lackluster, and outlandish-sounding text.
"Native-speaker" is at times a rather nebulous attribute, since it may depend on the individual's history. Of course, someone who was born, raised and educated in Slobovia, and never left the country, might have issues in properly understanding the source language and culture upon translating into their native Sloboviak language, in spite of whatever qualifications they may have earned.
On qualifications, there is the taxi driver example. I am not qualified to drive a cab, as it requires a professional driver's license, even if that taxi were the same car I own. Nevertheless, I have been on taxicabs in Brazil and NYC (I drove myself everywhere else), and quite often the technically professional driver's performance at the wheel was so bad that I wished I were the one driving that cab to arrive safely.
The same may happen to translators. So, if truthfully taken, the "native speaker" self-claimed attribute on Proz may be read as a statement of either of "actually native speaker" (a nebulous concept at times) or that "natives always take me for one of them" (just as nebulous, since perhaps these natives are just being nice). Yet neither guarantees anything.
It's merely an oversimplification of the translator selection process. If it's red on the outside, that tomato must be good and ripe.
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Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 04:00
English to German
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In memoriam | @Lilian: The proof of the pudding... | Aug 6, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Wy don't you just come to the US Ty and
explore the reality and the legal system instead of guessing.
I think it's time that you finally quote that alleged law that says that asking a linguist for his native language is illegal.
Again: It is illegal to ask any interviewee any personal questions that are not relevant to the performance of the job or that don't refer to any prerequisite for a particular job. I seriously look forward to any proof that asking for a translator's mother tongue is illegal.
BTW, the US don't even HAVE any official language. There is nothing to be discriminated against.
Also, I seriously am tired of the word "native"...
Edited for typo: "I think", not "I thinks"...
[Edited at 2013-08-06 17:15 GMT]
| | | | | not the only filter | Aug 6, 2013 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
There is nothing wrong with writing in a non-native language at a mature and polished level. Just don't claim to be a native speaker in it. There is most often a very big difference! Bernhard, I tended to disagree with most of your views, because my perception of them was that someone is either a native speaker or not, and that determines unquestionably and unequivocally the quality of the translation such person can or cannot deliver. Now you have separated the fact from the claim. Being a native speaker fails to guarantee that a person will write in that language in a mature and polished way.
Well, again, native language by itself certainly doesn't guarantee it. But taken together with the other available filters, it can be taken as an added assurance to a particular quality of writing.
| | | | | native language does matter, practically, and as a particular concept | Aug 6, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Why don't you report English as your second native language, Bernhard, ...
because it's not, in the sense, as I believe, most users of this site understand it.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:00
Portuguese to English
+ ...
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
In reference to some language pairs like Polish-English and Russian-English, not to mention Lithuanian-English, the discussion is even more pointless, because there are almost no translators who translate highly specialized texts from those languages into English
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| No research at all | Aug 6, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote: LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Wy[sic] don't you report English as your second native language, Bernhard, I think he's made it clear that English is not his native language, he was born and raised in a German speaking country, his primary, secondary and first round of tertiary education were all in a German speaking country. Yes, he has spent a long time in the US, but that doesn't change your native language in most cases. Funnily enough, I happened to catch 10 minutes of a cooking programme with Rick Stein (famous Chef) he was talking about some German relative of his who abandoned her native German when she lived in England because of anti-German sentiment after WW2 and pretty much switched entirely to English, however many decades later 2 days before she died she started speaking German again. Cute story and the moral of it is that even decades of living in a foreign culture, immersed in a foreign language doesn't necessarily have the power to "supplant" one's native language. your own stereotypical definition of a native language as L1 What you call "stereotypical", I call "mainstream". because it is simply not the right definition of the phenomenon According to you. From what I remember, you have all of your higher education in English only, use mostly English at work, at the university, and have been living in the United States like for 15 or 17 years. This inability that afflicts you to do even basic research is not very reassuring. A cursory glance at his website shows that his first round of higher education was in Austria, and he has lived in the US for 25+ years. Do you believe that the people who report other German and English as their native languages get more jobs? Hint: not everybody cares about "the jobs". Most of the participants of this thread I'd wager don't even use ProZ for the job boards. In reference to some language pairs like Polish-English and Russian-English, not to mention Lithuanian-English, the discussion is even more pointless, because there are almost no translators who translate highly specialized texts from those languages into English who were born in English-speaking countries. Polish-English and Lithuanian-English yes, I can believe that...and this is one of the many exceptions we have talked about ad nauseum, Russian-English however has no shortage of native-English translators (and therefore undoubtedly some rather talented ones who specialize).
I don't do any research, Ty, on anybody -- it is just not my style. This is what I remember from Bernhard's posts. Re:languages -- Russian too -- if you think about it more closely. there are a few exceptions, but not too many.
| | | | | You cannot require nay nativeness according to the American law | Aug 6, 2013 |
Nicole Schnell wrote: LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Wy don't you just come to the US Ty and
explore the reality and the legal system instead of guessing. I think it's time that you finally quote that alleged law that says that asking a linguist for his native language is illegal. Again: It is illegal to ask any interviewee any personal questions that are not relevant to the performance of the job or that don't refer to any prerequisite for a particular job. I seriously look forward to any proof that asking for a translator's mother tongue is illegal. BTW, the US don't even HAVE any official language. There is nothing to be discriminated against. Also, I seriously am tired of the word "native"... Edited for typo: "I think", not "I thinks"... [Edited at 2013-08-06 17:15 GMT]
| | | | | No, it is definitely not a myth | Aug 6, 2013 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: LilianBNekipelo wrote:
In reference to some language pairs like Polish-English and Russian-English, not to mention Lithuanian-English, the discussion is even more pointless, because there are almost no translators who translate highly specialized texts from those languages into English
I am not sure if you read some Russian literature in the original. If you do, you probably know how bad some of the translations are -- many done by translators born in English-speaking countries. There are some exceptions, but not too many. Most just don't feel the language. Of course, this is not any type of a rule, but rather my personal experience.
[Edited at 2013-08-06 18:33 GMT]
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 04:00
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | @Lilian: I am still looking for a proof | Aug 6, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
you are not even supposed to use this word in any work related circumstances. You can only require perfect fluency and check it through a text -- grammar, usage, comprehension --- not the degree of nativeness, whatever that is supposed to mean. The United States is not the EU, after all. Would you forbid the Navaho people to translate into English even if they had known the language to a very high level because it may not be their native? Well, they would say: we are Native, what exactly do you have in mind? Many people born here may not speak 100% pure English, but rather a language influenced by other languages they have been in contact with due to various factors -- the ancestors' heritage being one of them.
Before you get entangled in even wilder thought processes.
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| I can assure no-one is allowed to use any native language terms in any New York courts | Aug 6, 2013 |
and governmental offices. I am really surprised that the ATA still uses it, although it is totally not PC. They may, after all, have turned into nothing but one of the many commercial associations. I don't know if the NYC protocol is anywhere to be found online. If I find it, I will post the link. I cannot do it right now.
[Edited at 2013-08-06 19:07 GMT]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 16:30
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Applies to writers, not translators | Aug 7, 2013 |
That article represents just the opinion of one person, the author of that article. So it is not necessarily true. Further, it is specific to authors, not translators. Most successful translators are a different species from monolinguals (and authors are all monolingual) and have living contact with their source and target languages from a very early age. So they do not have to take rebirth to write in any new language, and if they have to, they do it successfully umpteen times a day, that is, every time they translate something.
Translators train themselves to function in more than one language (two in most cases) and the better ones become very good in their working languages. It is meaningless to challenge their proficiency in their working languages on the specious touch-stone of "are you a native-speaker of your working languages?".
Much of the muddle that we see in this thread and other similar threads is due to the application of monolingual concepts, myths and beliefs on translators, who belong to another planet altogether.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:00
Hebrew to English
| What's good for the goose... | Aug 7, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Applies to writers, not translators
...is good for the gander!
translators, who belong to another planet altogether.
It's funny...I was thinking the same thing!
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