| Pages in topic: [1 2 3] > | Editing a book translation - Client correction rounds Thread poster: AngelaBureau (X)
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AngelaBureau (X) 
France
Local time: 03:22
English to Hungarian
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Hello Everyone,
Your kind help is required please!
An author has selected me as the exclusive editor/translator to render his 426,000-word novel (about 1250 pages available in Word / PDF, in three volumes) accurate in English. I am currently negotiating the contract terms and actual scope of the work with the client, who is the author himself.
The question is: how many client review rounds should be necessary, and at what frequency during/after the complet... See more Hello Everyone,
Your kind help is required please!
An author has selected me as the exclusive editor/translator to render his 426,000-word novel (about 1250 pages available in Word / PDF, in three volumes) accurate in English. I am currently negotiating the contract terms and actual scope of the work with the client, who is the author himself.
The question is: how many client review rounds should be necessary, and at what frequency during/after the completion of the project.
The original novel is in Hungarian; and the writer has translated it into English. The task involves comprehensive editing of the translation while cross-referencing the source text, the author's guidelines provided for each chapter AND the glossary of terms compiled by the author as well. On the writer's request, I have already read the first volume in Hungarian, and we have talked at length about the rest of the book, the target audience, etc. I have carefully inspected his English translation, too. As the writer is not a native speaker of English and he has never lived in an EN-speaking country, the quality of the target text is "medium," and it will require editing in terms of syntax, grammar, terminology and style. His reference materials will facilitate my work as he has already done a great amount of research on terminology; but even that will need to be carefully evaluated and adjusted in places. I estimate that about 30% of the text will actually have to be rewritten (developmental editing), and the rest of it comprehensively edited.
I did suggest to the client that translating from scratch would be a better option (it would definitely make my life easier, and the work more creative and flowing). However, he firmly rejects this approach for (immense!) fear of "losing his presence in the text." He is very precious about his work; and he does not trust anyone else to do a good job without his constant involvement in the project.
For this same reason, he envisages having weekly review rounds of my work. He would like me to edit his translation using all the support materials, hand over the week's work for his correction, then go through his amendments, and finalise the text before starting with next week's batch.
I think I would go crazy if I accepted such a workflow. To render this fantasy novel into something naturally flowing and enjoyable in English, I would need to work on it continuously. Moreover, as the editor, I feel that my corrections should not be questioned by the author, whose English is at best upper-intermediate. The project would take me 8 to 9 months to complete if I work on it full time, 5 days/week. The payment he is offering is already on the low end of the scale, and adding weekly correction rounds would push the project out to about 11 to 12 months, which is really not profitable for me at all.
In my opinion, the correction rounds are not necessary. But I am open to letting him revise the finalised version, and adding amends (within reason), then revising his amends in the 2 weeks that follow the final deadline.
Do you think that I am being idealistic? Would you advise that we incorporate the weekly client review rounds? If you think like me above, what do you suggest would be the best way to make the client understand that such weekly correction rounds are unnecessary?
Thank you in advance,
Angela ▲ Collapse
| | | | Thayenga
Germany
Local time: 03:22
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
| Correction rounds | Feb 18, 2013 |
Congrats on the job, Angela.
Although I can fully understand the concerns of the writer, being one myself, that he might "lose his self" (no, not himself) during the revision process, I still don't think that a weekly handover followed by a new revision based on his input each time/week, is necessary...aside from not really being feasible, let alone benefial to you since you won't be able to accept any other assignmen... See more Congrats on the job, Angela.
Although I can fully understand the concerns of the writer, being one myself, that he might "lose his self" (no, not himself) during the revision process, I still don't think that a weekly handover followed by a new revision based on his input each time/week, is necessary...aside from not really being feasible, let alone benefial to you since you won't be able to accept any other assignments.
Perhaps you might be able to convince him to accept receiving chapters, as soon as they are completed, but to wait with another/final revision of your work until the entire project has been completed/edited.
Every writer has st himself a deadline by when the revision should be completed so he can go ahead with trying to find an agent or publisher (in case he hasn't yet). So if you explain to him that these weekly batches actually hinder your work flow in a creative way, which will make it more difficult and lengthy for you to actually complete the project, he might give him.
Also, if he returns your week's work after, let's say another week, then you would be required to stop the revision process (hindering the work flow) for however many days it will take you to edit the manuscript to comply with his changes/wishes. Surely he will agree that this is not the "perfect" way to work; for neither of you.
Good luck! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I would say no, no and no... | Feb 18, 2013 |
I did start on a job like that once, though on a much smaller scale, and luckily the client / author himself gave up after a couple of chapters.
You are quite right IMHO, and it would drive you crazy!
It is impossible to convince someone like that - at least so I found. He had lived for a short time with English speakers, but he simply could not see that his 'creative use of English' would not come across like that to anyone who did not understand the source language. I... See more I did start on a job like that once, though on a much smaller scale, and luckily the client / author himself gave up after a couple of chapters.
You are quite right IMHO, and it would drive you crazy!
It is impossible to convince someone like that - at least so I found. He had lived for a short time with English speakers, but he simply could not see that his 'creative use of English' would not come across like that to anyone who did not understand the source language. It sounded clumsy, and having to read every sentence three times destroyed the effect.
He refused to use any of my suggestions that might have worked - I have done a fair amount of creative writing too over the years.
He gave me free hands - so he said - to rewrite as necessary, but if I did, he simply rewrote the sections and we started all over again.
Your author might not be quite the same, but it sounds as if it is his 'baby', and he will simply not accept what you say, so you will have to be enormously patient.
If it was a short-term thing, then you could think about it, but if it goes on full time for months, then I think it goes way beyond the call of duty.
You do need to be properly paid for your time too!
It is bitter to sit with a job like that, and have to turn down more interesting and better paid work. OK for a week or two, but you would lose all your other clients in a year...
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I would say firmly that the author must let you do a chapter or two with completely free hands, and se what he thinks. Then renegotiate for the rest.
If he will not agree to those terms, then he must find someone else!
I see Thayenga explains it a different way, but comes to a similar conclusion. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Suzan Hamer
Netherlands
Local time: 03:22
English
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| With Christine: No, NO, NO! | Feb 18, 2013 |
I think you should go with your feeling that the workflow would drive you crazy. It's amazing how often our initial gut reactions are correct. I think eventually the client also would drive you crazy, and about half way in (even less) you would ask yourself why you ever agreed to take on this job.
I also agree with Thayenga that weekly revisions would hinder your workflow. You would never be able to move on with the original text if you must keep stopping to check (and re-check) the... See more I think you should go with your feeling that the workflow would drive you crazy. It's amazing how often our initial gut reactions are correct. I think eventually the client also would drive you crazy, and about half way in (even less) you would ask yourself why you ever agreed to take on this job.
I also agree with Thayenga that weekly revisions would hinder your workflow. You would never be able to move on with the original text if you must keep stopping to check (and re-check) the author's amendments.
I'm currently working with the ideal client. I've done a first round of editing on her manuscript and returned it to her in one piece. She has incorporated my changes and suggestions (or rejected them), and returned the complete text to me for one last proofreading. So, that's an entire book in two rounds. Of course, I allow for the fact that in this last final proofreading I may still have a question or comment or two that require an answer from the author, but that won't be a full third round; just tying up any loose ends.
I think you answer your own question: "He is very precious about his work; and he does not trust anyone else to do a good job without his constant involvement in the project." ..."The payment he is offering is already on the low end of the scale, and ...is really not profitable for me at all."
I've found that if I pass up a job that I don't feel good about, no matter how interesting, tempting or "good for me" it seems, something much better always comes along. ▲ Collapse
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 02:22
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Some thoughts, to take or to leave | Feb 18, 2013 |
Nine months of work in the bag? Nice one! I've never had a job anything like that big, nor have I edited a book (though I'd like to), so you might want to take my input with a large pinch of salt.
I'd agree with Thayenga that anything less than a chapter at a time would be disruptive. I always give my clients the chance to voice doubts, queries and suggestions; it's their text and they must retain confidence in the English version. However, with this book you have two constraints, t... See more Nine months of work in the bag? Nice one! I've never had a job anything like that big, nor have I edited a book (though I'd like to), so you might want to take my input with a large pinch of salt.
I'd agree with Thayenga that anything less than a chapter at a time would be disruptive. I always give my clients the chance to voice doubts, queries and suggestions; it's their text and they must retain confidence in the English version. However, with this book you have two constraints, the usual ones of time and money. If you're talking months (which you no doubt are for this sort of volume), then you can't just absorb that into an already low hourly rate. And you must be able to determine when and how comments will be handled, to avoid unnecessary disruption.
You don't say how you're being paid for this job, but I'm presuming you aren't waiting until the end of the job to be paid. I'm also presuming he won't want to pay lots of money without seeing any work, so I imagine you're happy to deliver in stages, even though delivering on a Friday, at whatever line in the book you happen to get to, then dealing with changes on Monday before getting into the flow again, that just isn't going to work. You know that and you'll have to stand firm on that.
How about delivering a chapter at a time, and incorporating changes at the end of the following chapter? Obviously, if the chapters are really short then you'd want to group them. I could see it as follows:
- C1 is finished and delivered with its invoice. Editing work resumes immediately.
- C2 is finished. Meanwhile, comments on C1 have arrived and have been awaiting your attention. You now switch to reviewing that C1 feedback. The client receives a package of C2 + revised C1 + invoice for C2 editing and C1 revisions.
And so on, to the end of the book. Once comments on the last chapter have been incorporated and the final invoice prepared, you might feel prepared to take a few final comments and changes without further invoicing, particularly if you're now engaged on other, well-paying, work.
Would that suit each party, do you think? I'd certainly suggest negotiating with him now, rather than starting work in a way that you know isn't going to suit you.
But one thing: are you really going to work on this full-time? I know that might be best for concentration etc., but that's an awfully long time to refuse work from all other clients. Also, you say it isn't particularly well paid (I don't think books ever are, are they?), so you're going to have some lean months. It would be a shame to have no clients left at the end of the job. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 03:22
Member
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| Establishing authority | Feb 18, 2013 |
This looks like a very-high-maintenance client. Coupled with the huge volume, there is a serious risk that unexpected frustration would take over well before the project is finished.
I had a similar experience, translating two 700-page graduate-level textbooks of solid-state physics from... Hungarian into English. The author provided excellent feedback on terminology, he clarified every obscure point and was open to my editing suggestion s of removing redundancies, rearranging the a... See more This looks like a very-high-maintenance client. Coupled with the huge volume, there is a serious risk that unexpected frustration would take over well before the project is finished.
I had a similar experience, translating two 700-page graduate-level textbooks of solid-state physics from... Hungarian into English. The author provided excellent feedback on terminology, he clarified every obscure point and was open to my editing suggestion s of removing redundancies, rearranging the arguments, etc. He also agreed to check my translations in batches of 300-400 pages. He had a good command of English, regularly publishing articles in peer-reviewed journals.
When he checked my translation, many of his suggestions were useful. But many others were uncalled for, and as it was not established from the beginning where his turf ends, I had to spend far too much time justifying my choices. Also, my translation gave some new ideas, plus while I was translating the book, some exciting new results were published, and he felt like improving the text by including them. Despite discussing and establishing a workflow right from the outset, I ended up with 25 to 30 percent more of work, and a high resistance to pushing the deadline. Finally, I did not translate the third and last volume of the series.
I think you can easily end up in futile arguments where the author asks "why isn't my version OK; it reflects the original more accurate than yours". I don't think anyone can handle that for 1000+ pages. Also, your name will be published, so you will be very reluctant to make concessions. In many cases, you may not be able to reach a mutually satisfying solution. This is a very serious frustration factor that can easily curb your enthusiasm.
It is therefore crucial that you establish your authority in certain linguistic choices. But it is extremely difficult when you cannot claim English to be your native language, either.
If you already have an English-language publisher, they may be of help here - but it is not granted: my publisher, for example, did not help at all in resolving any such issues. They wanted to deal with the final MS only. If you are luckier, you may select a small sample, and send two versions to the publisher to comment: one that is best in your opinion, and a second, where the author can do whatever he wishes with your translation. Feedback from the publisher may then help establish authority. But I think if your points of view are very divergent, this won't help too much, either.
Finally, you should definitely check on a small sample for yourself how you can work with the author. Say, 5 pages, paid at full rate, and you sign the contract only if both of you are satisfied with the collaboration. Anything else would spell too much trouble, because of the unexpected problems - that are expected to show up.
Best,
Attila ▲ Collapse
| | | | AngelaBureau (X)
France
Local time: 03:22
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thank you for all your great advice | Feb 18, 2013 |
Thanks a lot everyone for your very useful input!
What I have read is reassuring: and I will use your comments as guidance when presenting the author with my workflow proposal.
As you have all raised relevant questions/points, I will try to give a brief summary in order to complete the picture below.
There is no publisher yet; finding one is something the author wants to do while the manuscript is being edited. So this excludes the option of approaching t... See more Thanks a lot everyone for your very useful input!
What I have read is reassuring: and I will use your comments as guidance when presenting the author with my workflow proposal.
As you have all raised relevant questions/points, I will try to give a brief summary in order to complete the picture below.
There is no publisher yet; finding one is something the author wants to do while the manuscript is being edited. So this excludes the option of approaching the publisher for support, as suggested by Attila, unfortunately.
At the same time, Attila raised a very important point: my credibility as editor seeing that I am not a native English speaker. This is very important to establish in order to win the author's trust, of course. As we have been in discussions regarding this project since July 2012 (!) and I have even agreed to travel to Hungary and meet him, he has a good understanding of my professional background as an English teacher (I taught English to native speakers as well as speakers of other languages in London for nearly 5 years, for example). I have also done some samples for him (based on the novel). Finally, I am in the process of joining SfEP, the Society for Editors and Proofreaders. I have consulted their best practices and Code of Ethics; and I am planning to incorporate sections of the latter in the contract as well as the scoping of the work (roles and responsibilities, Ts & Cs, etc).
Here is the link to the SfEP website, it might be of interest to you:
http://www.sfep.org.uk/default.asp
Based on your excellent suggestions, I have decided to propose doing a "test week" with the author before committing to anything in writing. I will suggest working on 1 short chapter (these range from 5 to 22 pages in length), then submitting it to him for revision, and eventually going through his amendments. Of course, I would invoice for this work. As Attila has pointed out, this would help both of us decide if we can envisage a successful collaboration.
As all of you agreed, I will not accept weekly correction rounds. Sheila's suggestion to go from chapter to chapter sounds good; however, it is not really applicable here as the majority of the chapters hovers around 5 to 7 pages in length. I would have to group them instead. Grouping the chapters into larger batches and agreeing to (approximately) bi-monthly client review rounds or consultations seems more doable. But truth be told, I'd much rather go volume by volume and do 1 revision cycle after handing over each (there are 3 volumes in total).
To respond to Sheila, payment terms would involve advance payment per volume. The client has offered to pay 10% up front; followed by 3 or 4 consecutive installments. This is a positive point and I'm happy about it, naturally.
Another comment by Sheila:
"But one thing: are you really going to work on this full-time? I know that might be best for concentration etc., but that's an awfully long time to refuse work from all other clients. Also, you say it isn't particularly well paid (I don't think books ever are, are they?), so you're going to have some lean months. It would be a shame to have no clients left at the end of the job."
You are right, I am fully aware of the risk I am taking here. However, there is an extra factor I haven't mentioned before: I am pregnant, and I do not expect to work at full capacity while on maternity leave I have five more months to go till the baby arrives; during this time I am planning to work at full capacity. After my child is born, I will take time off; then continue at a more chilled pace for a few months. Of course, it would be a shame to lose my other clients. Therefore (again) I see a good reason for not accepting weekly correction rounds - besides al the other reasons mentioned by Thayenga. I would like to keep some scope for helping my other clients out, too.
Christine, my author sounds very much like the client you describe in your post! Therefore I will take extra care in defining roles and responsibilities, and laying out expectations in the contract and scoping before we go ahead with anything.
Should the author refuse to go ahead under the above conditions... I do feel like Susan:
"I've found that if I pass up a job that I don't feel good about, no matter how interesting, tempting or "good for me" it seems, something much better always comes along. "
Thanks again for everyone's help!
Angela ▲ Collapse
| | | | Thayenga
Germany
Local time: 03:22
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
| Now it's shining in a new light | Feb 18, 2013 |
AngelaBureau wrote:
There is no publisher yet; finding one is something the author wants to do while the manuscript is being edited. So this excludes the option of approaching the publisher for support, as suggested by Attila, unfortunately.
Well, based on my personal experience, finding a publisher who might be interested in a work in progress is completely hopeless. All publishers require a completed manuscript in case they're interested in the book. And if they are, they will request the completed and polished manuscript. If this cannot be delivered at the time of the request, the query letter will go straight to the bin. No second chance given!
[Edited at 2013-02-18 13:20 GMT]
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AngelaBureau (X)
France
Local time: 03:22
English to Hungarian
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TOPIC STARTER | Point taken! | Feb 18, 2013 |
Thanks Thayenga, this is a very important point you have raised.
Being the kind lady that I am, I will make sure to call the author's attention to this
Hopefully all this client education will bear its fruits soon!
| | | | Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 03:22
Member
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| With Thayenga | Feb 18, 2013 |
Finding a UK or US publisher for a translated novel requires an effort that is most often very seriously underestimated by authors. I saw statistics showing that only 3% of the books published on the UK and US markets are translations - this compares with well over 50% in Eastern European markets.
Unless the book enjoyed a huge sucess in its original language, the chances of being published are slim. Of course, there are also ways to self-publish the book -- but it will hardly reach... See more Finding a UK or US publisher for a translated novel requires an effort that is most often very seriously underestimated by authors. I saw statistics showing that only 3% of the books published on the UK and US markets are translations - this compares with well over 50% in Eastern European markets.
Unless the book enjoyed a huge sucess in its original language, the chances of being published are slim. Of course, there are also ways to self-publish the book -- but it will hardly reach any significant readership then.
You mentioned that there are several volumes. There is absolutely no point in investing work into Volume 2 before Volume 1 is published.
But even with Volume 1 I would seriously limit the invested time: translate a chapter at the author's expense, and then let him find a publisher. There should be no rush: what would be the point of having the full translation in his desk drawer if no publisher shows interest?
Best,
Attila ▲ Collapse
| | | | The Misha
Local time: 21:22
Russian to English
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| A foriegn novel of 426K? Good luck with that | Feb 18, 2013 |
To add another strike to what others have said, these days a standard commercial size novel in the US and the UK is expected to be between 80 and 100K words. Sure, some chart their own course, but for that you pretty much need to be a whale the size of Stephen King or that lady that wrote Harry Potter, whatever her name is. A previously unpublished foreign author with a whopper of an epic like this one? Well, I wouldn't worry too much about my name being published on something like that.
<... See more To add another strike to what others have said, these days a standard commercial size novel in the US and the UK is expected to be between 80 and 100K words. Sure, some chart their own course, but for that you pretty much need to be a whale the size of Stephen King or that lady that wrote Harry Potter, whatever her name is. A previously unpublished foreign author with a whopper of an epic like this one? Well, I wouldn't worry too much about my name being published on something like that.
That said, apparently miracles do happen - otherwise, how would Proust, Joyce or Ayn Rand to name just a few ever get published? They are just not very likely. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Thayenga
Germany
Local time: 03:22
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
| Another question | Feb 18, 2013 |
AngelaBureau wrote: Thanks Thayenga, this is a very important point you have raised. Being the kind lady that I am, I will make sure to call the author's attention to this Hopefully all this client education will bear its fruits soon!
You're very welcome, Angela.
As Attila pointed out, the original book should have been published already. Do you have any information about this? Has the Hungarian original been published? If yes, how successful is it? This, e. g. good sales, might influence a publisher in the USA or in the UK to at least take a look at the translation.
If the answer is no, then.... well, either the writer should see to it immediately that the book gets published in his home country or, as sad as it might be, forget about it altogether.
Either way, if you are interested in translating his manuscript, exercise good risk management, that is see to it that payment will be made after each translated chapter.
I do hope that this project will work out for both you and the writer.
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AngelaBureau (X)
France
Local time: 03:22
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you, Thayenga and Attila, for your latest comments; it's much appreciated!
The first volume of the Hungarian original has already been published in Hungary. It was not a huge success as the publisher did not conduct a marketing campaign on any level. The author has neglected self-marketing for the past year or so, too (for personal reasons).
To my best knowledge, he is planning to self-publish (e-book?).
I will make sure to point out the potential ri... See more Thank you, Thayenga and Attila, for your latest comments; it's much appreciated!
The first volume of the Hungarian original has already been published in Hungary. It was not a huge success as the publisher did not conduct a marketing campaign on any level. The author has neglected self-marketing for the past year or so, too (for personal reasons).
To my best knowledge, he is planning to self-publish (e-book?).
I will make sure to point out the potential risks regarding finding a publisher in an English-speaking country next time I communicate with him.
There are three volumes in total. I think Attila's suggestion to concentrate on the first volume to begin with sounds very reasonable and down-to-earth. Like many artists, my client is somewhat less practical, though, and likes to hover overground, with his head in the clouds. Hopefully he will see the light and this project will become a success ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 02:22
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Isn't this too good to be true? | Feb 18, 2013 |
AngelaBureau wrote:
To my best knowledge, he is planning to self-publish (e-book?).
It sounds as though the original version hasn't made any money. Now, he's going to self-publish in about a year's time, and he's going to pay you for working full-time for 9 months before he's seen even a cent? Now, why would he do that?
You live in France, so even though you say you've negotiated a lower-than-average rate, you'll need to be bringing in a substantial amount of money each month: even the SMIC (French minimum wage) is over 1400€ a month, and you'll be paying substantial social charges out of your income, and hopefully expecting to earn more than an unskilled labourer.
Are you sure he's really thought this through?
BTW: I hope everything goes swimmingly well with the pregnancy and afterwards!
[Edited at 2013-02-18 17:44 GMT]
| | | | | Best of luck... | Feb 18, 2013 |
I really think I would say no to this one.
Even if you can cope with it before the baby arrives, can you afterwards?
Looking back, even as one does, with rose-coloured spectacles, I remember the sheer exhaustion of having a baby in the house. I had to lie down and sleep every time my son did!
He was perhaps an unusually wakeful baby, but very good natured. Don't imagine you will get much work done, and if your author's temperament has not driven you mad before you... See more I really think I would say no to this one.
Even if you can cope with it before the baby arrives, can you afterwards?
Looking back, even as one does, with rose-coloured spectacles, I remember the sheer exhaustion of having a baby in the house. I had to lie down and sleep every time my son did!
He was perhaps an unusually wakeful baby, but very good natured. Don't imagine you will get much work done, and if your author's temperament has not driven you mad before you have the baby, it will afterwards...
Find some more 'ordinary' clients, that is my advice!
But best of luck, whatever you do! ▲ Collapse
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