Native-like brain processing of second language possible in university students
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| | | I have always had a strong suspicion that this is true | Oct 23, 2013 |
I have always felt that there must be some way of keeping the window for language acquisition open through constant language study.
Precisely because this is how I learnt my fourth acquired language, now my language of habitual usage. After many years of immersion, it feels and functions like a native language, in contrast to other languages, which I have studied extensively, but never been immersed in.
Real natives often do not discover until I tell them that I am not 'one... See more I have always felt that there must be some way of keeping the window for language acquisition open through constant language study.
Precisely because this is how I learnt my fourth acquired language, now my language of habitual usage. After many years of immersion, it feels and functions like a native language, in contrast to other languages, which I have studied extensively, but never been immersed in.
Real natives often do not discover until I tell them that I am not 'one of them'.
I know I am not alone with this experience, no matter what the boffins say about acquiring languages as an adult.
One learns in different ways, but when immersed in everyday life, one also learns in the same ay as a child, and it doesn't surprise me at all that the mental processes are the same. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tim Friese 
United States
Local time: 01:36
Member (2013)
Arabic to English
+ ...
| Interesting post | Oct 23, 2013 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
I know I am not alone with this experience, no matter what the boffins say about acquiring languages as an adult.
I will admit that I'm not quite there with my foreign languages - they're still foreign to me, sadly.
When studying second language acquisition to become a language teacher, I was surprised by how shaky the evidence for the 'critical period' hypothesis is. For one, many people don't reach extremely high proficiency in a foreign language learned in adulthood, but then some people go to 100% - how do we account for them? (for you!)
Also, there are fascinating experiments in which people with no experience in a foreign language whatsoever are brought into a lab and asked to repeat a native speaker of another language speaking that language. In a few hours, they can often produce output (though they're just parroting; they don't understand it) that native speakers of the foreign language can not distinguish from a native speaker!
My money is on 'affective' factors - issues like envisioning oneself as a bilingual, feeling a part of the L2 speech community, etc. I think these may be the true barrier for adult foreign language learning. The critical period then would not be linguistic but rather one of identity.
| | | | | native speech usually by native speakers | Oct 23, 2013 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
I have always felt that there must be some way of keeping the window for language acquisition open through constant language study.
Precisely because this is how I learnt my fourth acquired language, now my language of habitual usage. After many years of immersion, it feels and functions like a native language, in contrast to other languages, which I have studied extensively, but never been immersed in.
Real natives often do not discover until I tell them that I am not 'one of them'.
I know I am not alone with this experience, no matter what the boffins say about acquiring languages as an adult.
One learns in different ways, but when immersed in everyday life, one also learns in the same ay as a child, and it doesn't surprise me at all that the mental processes are the same.
Just out of curiosity, Christine, how old were you when you were first immersed in Danish (family, university?) and for how long?
Although I agree that my brain has now an English region which I use to think, dream, read, listen, and write (while retaining my native German), I wouldn't go as far as agreeing to have learned English like someone who learned it in his/her infancy or teenage years cause I didn't. Not saying you can't reach a very advanced proficiency level (very similar in everything to a native speaker), but
I have not met anyone who spoke English as perfectly as (= indistinguishable from) a native speaker when they didn't acquire it in their younger years.
[Edited at 2013-10-23 16:45 GMT]
NB: To quote from the article:
"Bowden and colleagues discovered that when students study a second language in normal university classes and then follow up with as little as one semester of immersion experience abroad, their brains also begin to process that second language in a way that is very similar to native speakers."
Beginning to process a second language in a way that is very similar to native speakers" is a far cry from being indistinguishable from a native speaker.
I process English "in English," and my thought-associations and speech patterns over the years have become very similar to those of a native speaker - but we should not assume that that means you can (easily) become "like" a native speaker - a conclusion which I don't agree with - the article seems to make, for which there is no firm factual evidence presented in the article. I say "seems to make" because of its comparisons of brain activities. It might prove that brain activity is "similar" but I don't subscribe to it being "native-like" in the sense that it's indistinguishable from a native speaker's complex brain activity and that it results in the same language output (in terms of speech, idioms, accents, vocabulary, etc.) as that of a native speaker.
Here's more from the article:
"The study suggests that an immersion experience may in fact be critical to attaining native-like brain processing of a foreign language.
Many researchers have argued that late learners could never become native-like in how they process grammar in a new language," Bowden said. "These results argue that not only is this possible, but it is possible earlier than previously thought: at least for young adults who study for several semesters and then study abroad, it's not too late to attain native-language brain processing skills." (END of QUOTE)
To me, there is a big difference between brain waves and actual non-native and native-speaker language output. We shouldn't confuse the two.
[Edited at 2013-10-23 18:03 GMT]
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For some reason, articles like this always remind me of that part on Phenomenon where John Travolta becomes somewhat proficient in Korean just by reading a phrasebook for like 15 minutes.
There have been prodigious savants who can play complex pieces of music perfectly after hearing them once - with no training whatsoever on the instrument. Feats such as this suggest to me that we can not completely rule out the possibility that humans may indeed have capabilities for process... See more For some reason, articles like this always remind me of that part on Phenomenon where John Travolta becomes somewhat proficient in Korean just by reading a phrasebook for like 15 minutes.
There have been prodigious savants who can play complex pieces of music perfectly after hearing them once - with no training whatsoever on the instrument. Feats such as this suggest to me that we can not completely rule out the possibility that humans may indeed have capabilities for processing information far beyond what we usually consider. As far as medical science has come, there is still much that is unknown about the inner workings of the human brain.
Take for example the case of Orlando Serrell, a so-called "acquired savant." After suffering a non-debilitating injury, Serrell found himself able to perform complex calculations and remember things beyond what the average human is able to do:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Serrell
http://www.orlandoserrell.com/about.htm
If this is possible, then it is not so hard to imagine a future where advances in biotechnology make possible surgical techniques that purposefully bring about these changes in people. Well, we could be a long way from that now, but it is something to think about. At any rate, I think that it is best to keep an open mind (no pun intended) when it comes to what our brains are capable of. There are many fascinating examples of individuals who push far beyond the limits that we tend to self-impose on our species. ▲ Collapse
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| 36 years of immersion, starting at 27 | Oct 24, 2013 |
I started learning French at school at about the age of seven, and Latin and German followed, and I studied French and German and at university. I had never stopped studying languages for longer than a vacation, hence my theory about keeping the window for acquisition open, simply by keeping on practising.
I came to Denmark at the age of 27, newly married and in love with everything... so I was highly motivated. I started a month later on an intensive language course designed to ca... See more I started learning French at school at about the age of seven, and Latin and German followed, and I studied French and German and at university. I had never stopped studying languages for longer than a vacation, hence my theory about keeping the window for acquisition open, simply by keeping on practising.
I came to Denmark at the age of 27, newly married and in love with everything... so I was highly motivated. I started a month later on an intensive language course designed to catch typical non-native errors and train pronunciation before incorrect approximations and bad habits had set in, so I had all the advantages.
I was even isolated when my husband travelled, leaving me for weeks at a time in a part of Copenhagen where I actually had to speak Danish to most of the neighbours and in shops etc. as well as continuing at language school.
While it is difficult to avoid English entirely in parts of Denmark, there was still only one TV channel for many years after I arrived, so it was not so easy as it is now to spend the entire evening listening to English or American TV. Nor could we afford to spend hours on the phone, especially to people outside Denmark.
So I was picking up Danish by every possible means in order to survive!
I spoke Danish to our son, who was born 15 months after I arrived in Denmark, and learned more Danish from the parents of other children.
I never lost touch with English, of course, and come to the UK a couple of times a year, but Denmark has been home for more than half my lifetime now. My Danish is not quite up to professional linguist standards, but I can compete with a lot of natives.
I don't think this is a unique experience, either. ▲ Collapse
| | | | xxLecraxx (X)
Germany
Local time: 08:36
French to German
+ ...
What does that mean, "their brains also begin to process that second language in a way that is very similar to native speakers"? I don't quite understand. Does it mean they don't translate the words in their heads anymore? I don't think this is limited to "university students".
| | | | | native-like versus similar to a native speaker | Oct 27, 2013 |
Marcel G. wrote:
What does that mean, "their brains also begin to process that second language in a way that is very similar to native speakers"? I don't quite understand. Does it mean they don't translate the words in their heads anymore? I don't think this is limited to "university students".
It's more than "they don't translate the words in their heads anymore." Even in the classroom, I tried to get beyond the "translation" of words with my students.
Immersion in a language during the so-called critical period of language acquisition - meaning living in a cultural environment where that language is the main/one of the main language(s) of communication" is what makes one a native speaker.
The term "native-like" is what bothers me in the article. To me, it means "like a native speaker." I don't have access to the actual research, but the article about it suggests it is used as meaning "similar to a native speaker". So, "beginning to think similar to a native speaker" is what this research seems to suggest to me which isn't earthshaking news. Anyone living in a culture for a year will soon begin to process the language in a similar way. But adults will not be able to make up for the cultural and linguistic development that a native speaker is able to process/go through during his/her younger years.
Very advanced proficiency in a second language is possible for adults, I won't argue that, but there are lots of factors that go into that. If your primary language belongs to the same language group as your first, it's probably easier to accomplish. Or if you kept up learning languages from an early age (like in Christine's case) combined with immersion for many years, that's another advantage.
But native-like as in exactly like a native speaker after a few classes and some immersion as an adult? No.
| | | | xxLecraxx (X)
Germany
Local time: 08:36
French to German
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| native level vs. burgeoning native-like language processing | Oct 27, 2013 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote: Marcel G. wrote:
What does that mean, "their brains also begin to process that second language in a way that is very similar to native speakers"? I don't quite understand. Does it mean they don't translate the words in their heads anymore? I don't think this is limited to "university students".
It's more than "they don't translate the words in their heads anymore." Even in the classroom, I tried to get beyond the "translation" of words with my students. Immersion in a language during the so-called critical period of language acquisition - meaning living in a cultural environment where that language is the main/one of the main language(s) of communication" is what makes one a native speaker.
Yea, but I was referring to the article which says "their brains also begin to process that second language in a way that is similar to native speakers", not to having a native-like level in a second language. I was wondering what the author meant by this. Of course I know very well that stopping to translate the words in one's head doesn't equal being a native speaker.
So, "beginning to think similar to a native speaker" is what this research seems to suggest to me which isn't earthshaking news. Anyone living in a culture for a year will soon begin to process the language in a similar way.
Yes, and I wonder why the author seems to limit this to "university students".
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| native-like brain processing - they're claiming indistinguishable syntax | Oct 28, 2013 |
Marcel G. wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
It's more than "they don't translate the words in their heads anymore." Even in the classroom, I tried to get beyond the "translation" of words with my students.
Immersion in a language during the so-called critical period of language acquisition - meaning living in a cultural environment where that language is the main/one of the main language(s) of communication" is what makes one a native speaker. Yea, but I was referring to the article which says "their brains also begin to process that second language in a way that is similar to native speakers", not to having a native-like level in a second language. I was wondering what the author meant by this. Of course I know very well that stopping to translate the words in one's head doesn't equal being a native speaker.
Hi Marcel,
If they don't mean "native-like level in a second language", then their results are hardly surprising. But according to the article, the results could be interpreted that way. And I don't see how that's possible. That's why I decided to write here.
The site below indicates that the researchers are talking about "indistinguishable" use of syntax between somewhat advanced non-native speakers and native speakers - and to judge the results, I would have to purchase the research article itself.
But I do hold that there should be vast differences in many regards between these speakers, depending on the complexity of the elicited speech patterns and on how all this research was carried out.
See:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24051003
Marcel G. wrote:
Yes, and I wonder why the author seems to limit this to "university students".
There are advantages to having a good university education plus immersion (not just immersion) when trying to learn a foreign language - I don't think it means much more. And, of course, the research subjects were university students.
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NB: Age makes a lot of difference - and the article about the research seemed to indicate what is to be expected, namely that the younger the students are, the easier and faster it will be to advance in a foreign language, especially with immersion. But I doubt the results really prove "indistinguishable language proficiency" between native and non-natives speakers, after the former had a few semesters at a university and 1-2 semesters of immersion. Vastly differing language groups also make a huge difference; English > Chinese versus English > Danish for example.
[Edited at 2013-10-28 04:19 GMT]
| | | | Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:36
French to English
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| Beware of neurobabble... | Oct 28, 2013 |
I kind of hate B/S waffly press releases to articles hidden behind paywalls. But since it's all we've got to go on...
"Brain scans revealed that when advanced-level students read sentences in Spanish, their brain waves were essentially identical to those of the native Spanish speakers, but very different from scans of students with low levels of Spanish proficiency."
On the surface, I'm skeptical as to how linguistically interesting this really is. You see, linguistic t... See more I kind of hate B/S waffly press releases to articles hidden behind paywalls. But since it's all we've got to go on...
"Brain scans revealed that when advanced-level students read sentences in Spanish, their brain waves were essentially identical to those of the native Spanish speakers, but very different from scans of students with low levels of Spanish proficiency."
On the surface, I'm skeptical as to how linguistically interesting this really is. You see, linguistic theory doesn't generally make many claims about "nativeness" being defined in terms of the "brain waves of people as they read sentences". I think what would be more interesting would be to at least compare brain scans of subjects asked to make acceptability judgements on sentences, or at least asked to perform some task that linguists actually generally use as an indicator of nativeness.
(Of course, the press release may simply be inaccurate when it says "read sentences". Without TFA it's hard to actually tell...) ▲ Collapse
| | | | | These studies are often carried out in very small groups | Oct 28, 2013 |
The human brain is highly individual and varied in its structure, and it is extremely difficult, for ethical reasons, to find valid control groups in these studies.
Many of them are carried out with subjects from more or less monolingual English-speaking cultures (at least when the results are published in English...).
The findings may be interesting, but I am very wary of taking them as proof of anything whatsoever.
I would like to see more studies of grou... See more The human brain is highly individual and varied in its structure, and it is extremely difficult, for ethical reasons, to find valid control groups in these studies.
Many of them are carried out with subjects from more or less monolingual English-speaking cultures (at least when the results are published in English...).
The findings may be interesting, but I am very wary of taking them as proof of anything whatsoever.
I would like to see more studies of groups who have been truly multilingual from early childhood, and how their continuing language acquisition works.
There is an enormous difference between classroom acquisition and the way a child picks up language by listening to it in use and deducing what it means.
An intelligent combination enables adults to learn a language well and become fluent quickly. ▲ Collapse
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